FROM STRESS TO SUCCESS | "THE WELLZEST PODCAST" WITH MANDY LEBLANC, WELL-BEING STRATEGIST

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. And welcome back to the Wells s podcast. I am delighted because I have a friend, an OG in the wellness game, someone that I've worked with, you know, through many, many years and has been really instrumental in driving change in workplace wellness. It's an honor to have Mandy LeBlanc on the podcast. Mandy, you're amazing. I can't wait to share with our audience all the things that you've done. So I'm going to tell everyone a bit about you. So Mandy LeBlanc is a powerhouse in preventive care and workplace well being. With over 20 years of experience designing wellness programs for organizations ranging from schools to Fortune 500 companies, she's helped thousands of people reduce stress, build resilience, and take control of their health. From leading a CDC grant on preventive health to shaping initiatives and at Kaiser Permanente and the American Heart association, she knows she is the person that turns evidence based strategies into real lasting impact. Mandy, I am so excited. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Thank you. Great to see you, Teju. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Yes. We've been catching up over the last, I mean, I would say like forever. I feel like we've always kind of dropped in, checked in, and it's just always amazing to see all the things that you do in workplace wellness, how much change that you've made, you know, how you really go into an organization and help shift their attitude and the behavior towards workplace wellness. And you've been doing this for two decades now, am I right, at least? [00:01:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:44] Speaker A: It just feels like I'm gonna totally. Can I totally embarrass you? It just feels like yesterday that I was sitting on your couch after launching a program talking about, you know, the good, the bad, the ups and downs, the wins, and, you know, kind of this, what I always love in our conversations. You always have this just beautiful vision for what workplace wellness can be, how people can actually live a healthier life. I'm curious, after two decades of doing this, what do you think actually moves the needle in employee health? [00:02:21] Speaker B: Great question. And so wellness started off, employee wellness really started off with hydration and taking the stairs. And I'm so proud of how far we've come because those things are important. But I think what really moves the needle is authenticity from leadership, getting input from everybody, not just the managers, but from top to bottom, bottom to top, figuring out what is needed in their culture and then implementing it with again, that authenticity and not just checking the box. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that that's something that, like you and I have talked about throughout our careers. You know, the step challenges and the water challenges, like, those things are all well and good, but each person is so unique. You know, they're showing up at an organization with unique needs. You know, there are different places on their wellness journey. And I think, I love the fact that you said authenticity. You know, how can we create programs that meet people where they are, help them to thrive, help them to, you know, kind of break through wherever they're stuck versus just like this, you know, honestly. And people, I've talked about this on the podcast. I've always struggled with the, like, one size fits all. Check the boxes, you know, like, drink your water, do your step, do 10,000 steps, like, have a nice life. You know, like, I just feel like, you know, humans are more complex than that and people are dealing with chronic conditions. You know, people are coming with, you know, mental health issues. People have, you know, even within a company, the difference in socioeconomic status is huge. So, you know, kind of what maybe a CEO or an executive can do for their health versus, you know, you know, entry level employees is dramatically different. And I feel like a lot of wellness programs have failed because they treat everyone the same. Speaking of that, you've designed probably over 100 programs on that same vein of, you know, hey, this one size fits all isn't really the thing. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see companies making, employees making when it comes to creating their programs, rolling them out? What are those. Those issues? [00:04:35] Speaker B: Sure. I think a lot of times leadership has best intentions at looking at lowering healthcare costs because that helps the organization. But really looking at what is it that everybody needs and how can we help people get to where, as you mentioned, meet them where they are and get them to where you want them to be through authentic leadership. And through that, it's taking a look at, we spend a great deal of our time working more than we probably should. And so if you have that audience and how do you show your team that you care about them, this is one strong way that you can demonstrate that you care about them. You care about their productivity, but their productivity activity will be better if they focus on their well being at work and at home. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I want to take a step back actually, because I want to frame everyone as we dive deeper into this conversation. Because you are, you know, as I said, like the go to, I feel like, you know, in designing programs that actually work, that actually drive change, how did you get into this? You know, like, what's your origin story? How did you get into this and I would love to know, multi, multi part question, as I always love to do, what has kept you in the, in the wellness game, especially as it's changed over the last few decades with AI, with new tools, with platforms coming and going. You know, what's kept you in the game? [00:06:01] Speaker B: Great question. Okay, so growing up, had a healthy childhood, played a lot of sports, but I didn't eat very well. I was of the generation where there was a lot of fast food access. And so I ended up playing Division 1 field hockey at American University. We beat the number one team that year. We had the number one score in the nation. And then right after the season, so I was about 18, 19, I started having these strong pains just below my ribs and I thought, what is that? And went to a few doctors. They couldn't figure it out because it turned out to be that I needed to have my gallbladder removed because I wasn't eating well. And I look back at school and no one was at fault. But I think that there could have been people that intercepted, such as coaches talking about this is what we need for productivity on the field. But then off the field, be mindful of what you're eating because that's fuel for your body. So I had this big wake up moment where all of a sudden they couldn't figure it out because it's usually women over 40 who are overweight and not living a high quality lifestyle. And so it was this because they couldn't figure it out. I thought, right, this is meant to be my life lesson. And so from there took more health classes, started looking at what does it take to lead an optimal life. And so then I got into doing triathlons. I met an amazing mentor and great team of people that encouraged me to do triathlons. So I was pretty fit into my 20s and 30s. The reason I stay in it is because I look back at some of these things that I did when I was really fit. I'd lead these lunch and learns which are now a bit outdated. And basically I look at the audience saying you too can be happy and healthy. And now the reason I say into it is because I'm about to turn 50 soon. Trying to look at, okay, yeah, what does it take to maintain? Right now I'm that person in the audience looking at a 25 year old talking about how you two can stay healthy. And well, it's not that simple. Right. So it takes a lot of maintenance. So that's, I feel like it's ever evolving. Yes, the Technology also we used to. I don't even want to talk about how we started with pedometers and now the exciting, right? So you have to stay curious. So I've been curious. I was just born that way. And I think I get it also from my parents who are very curious people. But staying curious about the technology that can help us and expedite our improved quality of life. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Absolutely. And technology. I actually remember when I was at lionaid, Fitbit was just rolling out, I think that was. And we had an integration with Fitbit early on and it was like a huge. Now I think about where we've come up with Oura rings and whoop and all the things that are in the industry. It's just, it's crazy to think about it. I'm curious what kind of, what technologies are you, are you excited about? You know, just looking at where the industry is moving. AI wearables, you know, are there things that you're excited about and are there things that you, you use on a day to day basis? [00:09:01] Speaker B: Great question. The things that I'm most excited about are taking a look at our sleep. I think that's underrated. And I got good sleep for decades, everything was fine. And then every now and then you have these moments where I have a teenager, right. So I've raised a child, I have a colleague in my house, if you will, that is always teaching me things. And so sleep, I think is an underrated way of measuring your sleep. And I get obsessed with how much deep sleep I had, how much REM sleep I had. That's just been in the past couple years. Wearable technology in a way that can enhance and doesn't stress us out. So the OURA rings, the things like that that I used to wear, a heart rate monitor, I got my VO2 measured. All those things are wonderful. But it's what can we use on a day to day basis that enhance those reminders to stand every so often. So I think those things can be a benefit if they're not causing stress and you embrace that and see it as a coach that's on your wrist, a coach that's on your finger. So I still use a Fitbit. Actually I use a Fitbit watch because I like the battery lasts the longest. Yeah, nice, nice. Yeah. I'm open to other technologies, but I think it's a fair entry point because when I work with people, I don't want to say here's this thousand dollar product, you too could use it. Right. So. And I like that it integrates well, with my life. [00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah, agree. I'm still a Fitbit user, you know, Like, I love my Fitbit. It works for me. I love that I can change out the bands, by the way, so. [00:10:28] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:10:33] Speaker A: But I agree. You know, it's so funny. I was actually really resistant to wearing a Fitbit. Like, I. I probably got my Fitbit, you know, maybe like, two years ago because of what you were saying. Like, I was like, you know, I just don't want another thing hovering over me to have to, like, track or stress about, you know, I was like, just, like, was very resistant to it. And it's funny, you know, I feel like we can almost swing the pendulum, you know, we can be in a stage where, like, it feels like your whole life is being tracked, like, every single thing. And, like, you're obsessing about the details, you know, which can be really unhealthy and really stressful. But, you know, the other side of it is that the data is knowledge. So I know that when I see. I look at my Fitbit and I'm like, oh, no, I'm at like, 5,000 steps. I better get moving. And those reminders are really, really, really helpful. And I think that, like, as we get more tools, technology, AI, we'll be a little bit more smart, predictive with the types of reminders, the feedback loops, where it feels more integrated and not like something that you just have to worry about or remember all the time. Right. [00:11:41] Speaker B: Another one I want to add is I listen to guided mindfulness messages before I go to sleep. So some people like it in the. I don't know, I tend to wake up and. And I appreciate in the morning when I have time. I do that on the weekends. But at night, falling asleep, it just allows me to kind of defragment my brain. And it's nice to have. [00:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, same. Me too. I love those. I do the mindfulness. I, you know, like, meditate in the morning and I'll do mindfulness or, like, breath work to close the evening, just. Yeah, I agree. Like, what you programming your subconscious before you go to sleep is so powerful. So I feel like those types of things, YouTube apps are so key. Love it, love it, love it. Love that you integrate technology, too. I'm curious, just thinking about, and we've been talking about this in our conversations kind of offline. What is one thing we're talking about technology as being something that can help drive changes. But in the workplace, where not everyone may have a Fitbit, not everyone may have an OURA ring What is one change in workplace wellness, you know, at the program level, at the employer level that you've seen actually drive massive health outcomes? And I'm going to just like fully admit I feel like there was a lot of things, I'm just going to call them smoke and mirrors that people do. They're like, oh, we're going to bring in like some bananas and apples and like, yay. That's going to shift the health of our organization. But we're gonna burn our people to the ground. They're gonna be working 100 hour weeks, but have a banana and hopefully you'll be okay. You know, I have always cringed at that. So I'm curious in your lens, you know, what are the things that are actually driving health outcomes? And then what, what are the smoke and mirror tactics that you've actually seen at organizations? [00:13:31] Speaker B: Sure. So the things that I think work are when you have, are able to train managers to be in tune with team needs. So a lot of times a person becomes a manager when they are very good at their job, they're very organized, they do all the right things, they get promoted to manager and then there's not a lot of support, even though they were good at their job. Learning how to manage others and be in tune and understand how their team is doing is critical. And so then also being that that's a people skill that not everybody is taught. I was a manager for a little bit and I needed to quickly learn and get to speed on how to connect with my team members. And then with that knowing the resources that are available. So do you know the behavioral health resources that exist? Do you know what healthcare plans so that you can help if they have a question so that again, you're focusing on productivity, that's very important. But if you don't connect with your team members, that helps with retention and also promoting the wellness program, whatever that may be. [00:14:33] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I feel like knowing your people and you know, I feel like I'm curious. How do you feel about, I feel like some workplaces, they're using things like Myers Briggs or using color theory, whatever it may be human design in order to really assess their people. What do you think about those tests and methodologies? Is it one that prefers or is it intrusive? I've heard people say to me, when a company slaps a Myers Briggs in front of me, I'm cringing. [00:15:05] Speaker B: Again, it's back to the managers and do they know their team? So getting to know, do they like more of the woo or do they like more of the concrete wellness stuff? And so I do all of those all the time. I find a little insight and I don't put all of them in one cup. And I don't think, okay, we're going to do Myers Briggs and then everybody's going to know how to treat everybody. I think it can be aspects of a tool that help. And when you talk about smoke and mirrors, to refer back to that question, I think the most harm that you can cause is when you have all these signs up and these emails that go out that say we care about you and then you burn out your team. [00:15:43] Speaker A: Agreed. [00:15:43] Speaker B: And so I would say that's the biggest ick or the smoke and mirror that I feel is when a company is saying one thing, but then they go out and they treat their employees differently in person. So that's the one I try to discourage the most. Only do it if you really mean it. [00:16:00] Speaker A: I agree. And I feel like there needs to be more real talk around this. Like, you know, like the company that's like, hey, we have this expensive wellness program, but we're going to lay off everyone on Zoom and not talk about it. And you know, now you're going to have three jobs instead of one. But you can call EAP if you really have a problem. You know, I like, to me, I just find that to be, you know, like, I'm trying to think of a nice way to put it, but I don't really have a day. I feel like it's complete, like bullocks. Like it's like complete bullshit. Like, why would you, you know, why would you invest in, quote unquote, a wellness program where, you know, really the well being of your employees is obviously not the center of what you're doing because of the way that you treat people. And I feel like there needs to be more accountability, you know, more conversation and more honest calling people out, calling companies out, like, hey, you know, if you're going to have a wellness program, a part of it, you know, if you're really committed to that, like, there should be almost like a, I don't know, like a sign off of, like, hey, we're not gonna treat our people like garbage. You know, like that should be the foundation of, you know, anything that you implement, anything that you do. Otherwise, I just feel like it's. Yeah, it's smoke and mirrors. [00:17:19] Speaker B: The beauty of going into these over 100 work sites is you could tell in about 10 minutes if this organization really wanted a wellness program or if they wanted it nice to have. And so that was really fun. You didn't need to be the smartest person in the world to see. Oh, they're just kind of checking the boxes here. So. Okay, we can placate that and we'll wrap up this meeting pretty quickly. And then the ones that wanted more, I would happily dive in and do a much more thorough review. And they're getting more out of me than the ones that are checking the box. So you get what you put into it. [00:17:50] Speaker A: Give me the dirt. What were, you know, you don't have to name any names, but like, what were some of those signs? You walk into the company and you're like, you know what? They're not about the vibe, really. They're like, you know, kind of passing it off to say that they have it and check the box. What were some of those signs in either the, like, hierarchy, the employees. Walk me through that. And what are those red flags, you know, that people should be looking for? [00:18:15] Speaker B: I was unleashed, and it was one of my favorite jobs. I had two jobs where I did about 50 organizations at one job and 50 at another. And so I was pretty young and I was unleashed to go into these companies and meet with their HR directors to. To help them with their wellness programs. And so I learned early on to show up a few minutes early and just observe. So wait in the lobby. I don't think I was stressing anybody out by just showing up a few minutes early. I knew they had meetings, but I could just look around and see how employees morale was and see what the vibe was. So were employees content to be working there? Were they scared? So you get a sense of that right away. [00:18:55] Speaker A: Right? [00:18:56] Speaker B: Then you go in and you meet with the HR director and seeing, is this coming from them? Is it coming from leadership? Is it coming from a need? What is their reasoning for having you there? And then what is their expected outcome? And was it realistic? Yeah, it was a really fun job. Yeah, both of them. [00:19:13] Speaker A: And what do you do with you said like those companies, do you feel like there's a way to convince a company, you know, that may be. Isn't really about the thing, isn't really about wellness, but they're just kind of passing, you know, passing it out. Hey, we're going to do this thing just because it looks good to our investors? Is there a way to go in and actually transform the culture, the mindset of that company, or does it take a management change, in your opinion? [00:19:40] Speaker B: Great question. And absolutely. So I quickly learned to code speak between if I'm speaking with leadership. It's, we can help you manage your healthcare costs, we can focus on productivity. And then if I'm talking to the HR manager who usually cares about the people, it's, this is a way of demonstrating that you care about your teams. So I learned two different languages. I became bilingual essentially. And then in the room, you weave them together. [00:20:06] Speaker A: Interesting. Very, very interesting. You know, the other thing too, just even thinking about who's at the table and making a decision of, you know, purchasing either, you know, workplace wellness program through a vendor or crafting something, you know, bespoke and grassroots. You know, any organization has, you know, a multitude of different generations, you know, from boomers to Gen Z, and sometimes there's all of them are represented at the buying table, you know, to decide what they're going to do. Sometimes it's not, it's just one person. And I've seen it in both extremes. Hey, we're going to get the person out of college to like, figure out our like workplace wellness or like, hey, we're going to get this season. Exactly. Because we actually have an investment in a people and culture infrastructure and we're going to have a more executive person making that decision. In my experience, when I was designing wellness programs, I think the style and the structure of the program was very different just depending on who was at the table. How do you see this play out? And then how do you, when we think about multi generational organizations, how do you even tailor a program that can work for a Gen Z, work for a millennial, work for a boomer, work for whomever else? What are some of the things, very tactically that the program you feel like, must have in order to really speak to a multi generational organization? [00:21:27] Speaker B: Sure. So when we first met, I was this aggressive person, young, that would go into a room and think I knew everything. As I've matured, it's really more active listening. Doing your research and then active listening. So I can't pretend to all the generations and what they're looking for, but I can ask the right questions and I can show up having done my research, that I earn that respect and credibility. And so I think that's the big part of it is don't think that you know, it all. The more I learn, the more I realize I have more to learn. And so taking a look, right? [00:22:00] Speaker A: Yes, every day. [00:22:03] Speaker B: And the things I did when I was in my 20s, thinking I knew everything and how much I appreciate mentors that would gently remind me. So I think it's doing your research before you meet with anybody and then listening and doing surveys in ways that work for them. Right. So an email survey might not work for certain generations. They might want to text or through social media and then being responsive, some people want that to give confidential responses and some people are fine adding their names. But at the bottom line is you want to get that data from them. And so meeting them where they are and the way that they communicate. [00:22:40] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah, I think that's so important, you know. Yeah, everyone's on their mobile phone all the time and you know, you may have an older generation that does want that email or does want to serve, you know, a hand filled, no friends. I love my parents very much but you guys love hand, those hand filled surveys, you know, I see them all the time with the paper, the pen. So for that generation they need that, you know. Whereas like personally I would prefer an email or a text to be able to fill something out. So I feel like, you know, programs that are adaptive and you know, are, have the modality and the ability to shift are actually really key. And I think that's also industry as well. Like I think about some industries when we were working together, you know, when I was at Limeade, so there were some industries like high tech and finance, like, you know, everyone was pretty stressed out when we would walk into those companies. Long hours, a lot of demands and especially those high growth startups, you know. Whereas other organizations, you know, maybe the stress was different, they're coming from a different place. How do you design programs that are effective for industries? Like how do you take into account, you know, hey, finance versus, you know, you know, health healthcare business. I think about like some of the healthcare businesses, the you know, company that you worked at, you know, the needs of nurses for example, are completely different than maybe someone who's a traitor on, you know, a floor somewhere. How do you take that into consideration as well? [00:24:12] Speaker B: Sure. Another great question for me, I was able to be a child actress and so I learned how to play many roles. And so the way I see it before going into a meeting is I think what does this, who is this person? If I were to play a character of this person, do a Personas activity which we did at Limeade and I still love is to look at what drives this person, Right? So if you're a nurse, you're not in it for the money, you're in it because you want to save people's lives, help people, right? So that's what they want to do. They also want to Clock out when they can and not and be able to go home to their families. And so if you're in finance, you might be in it for the money, and that's also wonderful. So finding out what it is that they're driving towards and helping them meet their goals. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:59] Speaker B: With there are people that take on stressful jobs, and with that comes, hopefully, more financial reward. And so playing into that, we hope, on a good day when all the stars align. [00:25:13] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, I feel like it's really interesting. Like, you know, and two, I always. I remember when I was designing programs, thinking a lot about what's the workplace like, the physical place, like, you know, so is there. And, you know, also geographically, you know, we're like, hey, let's do a walk challenge. And it's, you know, negative 20 degrees in the winter, you know, versus living here in Southern California where it's nice all the time and you can, you know, quickly walk in between. I feel like those things are very important globally as well. Have you done any work with Globe, you know, wellness programs outside of the United States, or kind of looking at those trends? What are some of the things you're seeing and maybe how globally, taking even more macro, what are some of the different levers that people are pulling in order to bring wellness to their employees? [00:26:05] Speaker B: Great question. And yes, you have to plan around the weather and what the culture is like. And so it could be a gym in one place and breaks at another place so they can go outside and get that fresh air and perspective. And I have done some global work. I was able to embark on a trip to Finland to see why they're the happiest people. [00:26:24] Speaker A: They're amazing. I still haven't been, but I just. That's high on the list. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. Perhaps we could go some time and research. So just walking around, figuring out, asking a few people that if they started a conversation with me, I knew it was an opportunity to open the door and figure out. And it seems like work life balance is much better outside of the United States. That's not true across the board. But in Finland, I found that people felt like they had work life balance. They felt like their team cared about them, they were able to get good sleep. They were focused on that, the sauna culture and all of those things that make us happier, infusing that into their day. Whereas in general, we tend to think whatever hours we're working, we're almost like in the cockpit. We have our jobs and then we unplug and do that, but we don't really unplug anymore. So there used to be a time that we could close our laptops, walk away and show up the next day. I think right now we're in a 24 hour work cycle. We sleep, but we might even be dreaming about our work. [00:27:29] Speaker A: It's so true. And it's really, I don't think we realize how pervasive and how wearing it is, you know, like your concept constantly, hey, I need to do this or I need to check on, you know, on social or, you know, like there's someone on LinkedIn that just DM me at whatever hour. It's like this constant, constant, constant, you know. And yeah, people aren't getting the like real deep mental reprieve that you really need to recover, which, you know, is driving a lot of burnout. And I feel like, I hear it's probably like almost every other day I talk to some, someone, you know, entrepreneurs, creators, filmmakers, and you know, they're talking about how they're burnt out. Are you hearing the same thing? And I'm curious, do you feel like burnout is just becoming like a buzzword or is it a, you know, is a symptom of the fact that we are, as you're saying, always on and have you seen any interventions in the wellness programs that you've built that actually help with burnout and help people to actually, you know, recover long term? [00:28:41] Speaker B: I am seeing a lot more burnout of people that I know and work with. I'm seeing a lot of job transitions. I think that what happens, let's say you're on a team of five people, you want to be the best. A lot of us are competitive, we want to move up. And so in order to move up, you have to work one point, whatever percentage you want to add it to in order to get ahead. And so you do that until you burn out. And either you get the promotion and maybe it is or isn't what you hoped, maybe you're getting more money, but the work is higher, harder. And so now taking a look at what that looks like in your life, I also think we used to be able to go on vacation. And yeah, there's some work that you had to do ahead of time and then more when you got back. But now it's very hard for people to completely check out. And so you're not really getting that break. Right. Even the weekends, just enough time to relax and then you're back into it. Or if you work a four day week, whatever your schedule is, if you're in healthcare Working, getting those two days off, just enough time to unplug and then you plug back in. And now we have sports that are exciting, but then those sports are also adding in all sorts of energy. And so I think learning from other cultures that are really good at relaxing and knowing how to have that. And so I think it goes back to the manager. And so, yes, there's technology that we could use, but the technology could be fed through the manager and having that connection and being able to read, oh, so and so is off in that meeting. Let me check in with them in our next one on one to see how I can support them. And easier said than done, I know, because I've managed people and you have your job and your deliverables, but when you can establish that connection and approach burnout earlier, it's much better than when somebody's quietly quitting. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. And the quiet quitting phenomenon, you know, I see people all over Instagram, TikTok talking about the fact that they're like, you know, it's just too much. I'm not doing it anymore. And you almost can't blame people, you know, like, the cost of living has increased, you know, wages haven't kept up with that, but the demands of being on all the time, you know, are incredibly wearing. And it's, you know, like, what gives? You know, one of the things I've always pondered, you know, especially thinking about, you know, back in the day when I used to work in healthcare and actually design healthcare programs and coming to, you know, the wellness world for companies like Lyman and American specially, health was the power preventive care, you know, and I feel like what you're saying is, like, in a lot of countries, they don't let it get so bad and so dire. You know, they've got maintenance strategies that are a part of the culture for rest and relaxation and reprieve and community and connection and actually having hobbies outside of just, you know, banging it out in the computer all day. You know, I'm just curious on what you think about the role of preventive care. I feel like preventive care hasn't evolved since I left healthcare. You know, it's like, hey, go for your annual well woman exam or, you know, go to your PCP and get your checkup. But I feel like if mental health, you know, screenings were covered under preventive care benefits, this is something that I'm like shouting from the rooftop, you know, a little bit more aggressively covered at 100% was a part of, you know, your core insurance program versus you know, hey, find a therapist and maybe we'll cover it, you know, and other type of preventive checkups, like, I don't know, preventive rest. Like, you get a day off, that's covered, you know, of your insurance. You get to take mental health days as a part of your insurance. But I don't know what it. It needs to be. But I'm curious, what do you think the next frontier, preventive health should be, you know, in a wellness program covered under insurance that companies should be providing? I'd love, you know, to get your thoughts on that landscape. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Love it. Great question. And you and I got to bond and meet over preventive health. And so the program that we designed together was focused on getting in to see a dentist. Either if you use tobacco, focus on cessation, or you get credit for not using tobacco, getting in to see your primary care provider. So those things are now fully ingrained in most organizations. The opportunity for improvement, and it hasn't evolved as quickly as you mentioned, is behavioral health checkups. And I think just as we get our teeth cleaned twice a year, you should. I think the most organizations can or do offer about three sessions per year on any related topic. And so if they're not already doing that, offering three sessions per year focused on behavioral health. And you can get more sessions often if it's on a different topic. Maybe you're navigating a parent who's got some health issues. Maybe it's an issue with a teenager. So those would be different appointments, but I think at minimum, these two appointments, similar to a dental cleaning, where somebody connects with you and sees how you're doing so that you also have that baseline, just as we do mammograms to have baselines getting in to see mental behavioral health. And these can be E visits. They don't have to be in person. They could be over the phone at whatever cadence works for the employee. But I think a minimum of twice a year so that you have this way of measuring how somebody's doing in a way that only you can see. Right. So I know there's a lot of privacy issues. And so maybe it's the way that you measure your behavioral health and seeing it as. Just as we get those dental cleanings, it's a checkup to see how you're doing. [00:34:04] Speaker A: I agree. I feel like it's so important to really talk about that too. You know, I feel like in some workplaces, it's still a little bit taboo. You know, it's like, oh, I don't Want to talk about the fact that it's gotten better definitely since I was in workplace wellness directly, but I still feel like there's a bit of taboo around it where I think it's critical that managers should be talking about that and encouraging people, hey, use that benefit. Advocating for more days, more coverage, you know, for a diversity of different things. Looking at holistic modalities too, as a part of the preventive, you know, package. How do we, you know, incorporate more of that, cover it at 100% where we can, you know, so that people who, you know, maybe talk therapy isn't the thing, but there's a different type of therapy, you know, equine therapy, whatever it may be, that would resonate with more that person. Let's cover that as well so that we can meet more people with where they actually are. [00:35:03] Speaker B: And I think that the stigma is also improving of accessing behavioral health. So that's come a long way. But I still think for those that aren't into it, calling it coaching. And it is a form of coaching where you have this relationship with somebody that you check in with a couple times a year that also asks you questions. And if it needs to be escalated to meeting with a behavioral health specialist, that you have that person. So having those relationships that exist when times get tough that you can reach out to that is available has a caseload that they can handle. So when they need somebody, you're there and you know that person. [00:35:37] Speaker A: I couldn't agree more. Yeah, exactly. Coaching. Yeah, that's a good reframe. It's coaching. It's, you know, and we all need coaches in our lives in order to break through, to improve, to sustain. It's. It's key. Right. [00:35:47] Speaker B: I'd be lost without my coaches. [00:35:49] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. Same, same, same, same. I'm curious if you. So speaking of coaching, which I think is, you know, and I remember back in the day Aduro and like some of these other companies were, you know, really paving the way at bringing coaching to organizations. And I think coaching is critical. What I'm curious and your perspective, if they're. All the wellness budgets get slashed tomorrow at companies, which I hope doesn't happen. But if that did happen, is there one single low cost wellness strategy you would fight to keep alive? [00:36:22] Speaker B: I'd have to say coaching because I think that if you have good coaching, then that person can get to know you and personalize your experience at that company. And so whether it's behavioral health, if it's access to different resources, telling then reporting back to Management what they're hearing. So it wouldn't be. Teju said she needs this. It's the general feeling I'm getting is we need to focus more on menopause, we need to focus more on behavioral health. And so if you have this pulse of coaching that's available. So back to that code switching where if you're speaking to leadership that can increase productivity, it can increase talent retention, and then you're showing your employees you care by offering somebody that they can talk to. It's not always comfortable to talk to your manager. Right. You might be stuck in something and you're pulled in five different directions that's impacting your productivity. But if you can talk to a coach that can guide you so the manager could pick up on that, something's a little bit off, refer you to that coach, who then gets you back in the game, hopefully and helps you figure out what resources you need that are offered through the employer. And if they're not offered through, through the employer, what, what does that look like? What could it. How can you best support that employee? There are some one off things that need help. [00:37:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree. Coaching would be my answer too. That would be the one thing. I think it's incredibly powerful. And you know, I feel like, especially with one on one, I know there's like a lot of AI tools out there that are, you know, coming on the marketplace. But with one on one coaching, like that's where you really get to meet someone where they are versus, you know, being like, okay, do the water challenge or whatever it may be, you know, they've got that relationship with someone who can really understand them, really create something that's custom for them and help to, you know, drive a big unlock versus the water down. You know, one size fits all. Yeah, I think coaching is so, so powerful and positive. You know, sometimes though, I do feel like we get into this loop in workplace wellness where, you know, how do I put this? Like, people are like, let's jump on the bandwagon of the next thing because it's hot and it's cool and we. What is one thing that you feel like everyone's kind of jumped on the bandwagon on that is supposed to be positive, but in fact it's actually really harmful to long term health. [00:38:36] Speaker B: During the pandemic or when things are stressful at a company, when you take a mindfulness moment. So it has the best intention. You have an hour long meeting, a 45 minute, and you spend the first five minutes doing some breathing exercises. And I think the world of breath work. So I don't think that breath work outside of a meeting isn't wonderful. I think it is. But I think you can cause harm when you take those moments, get everybody to relax, get centered, and then you dive into this super stressful meeting. And I think it's unintentional harm. You have the best intentions, but I've been in meetings where things are really stressful. We take that five minutes, and you can see people relax their shoulders. You can see people taking deep breaths, long exhales. And then you jump into something that just is almost like cold water again. And I'm all for cold water plunge, but I think it's causing more harm than helping. You can say, hey, I recognize this is a really stressful meeting. I recognize this is a busy time. I think that would be more beneficial than intending to get people to relax only to toss them back into the cold water. [00:39:47] Speaker A: I never thought about that. What do you think is the appropriate time to bring in? You know, because I feel like people are just throwing in breath work. They're throwing in, like, oh, you know, like, let's do. Do like a mindful moment. I agree with you. I've seen that as a fix. And I, I was. I went down a Reddit rabbit hole, which we're gonna go down the Reddit rabbit, Reddit rabbit hole. I can't even say that with you in a bit. And I was reading people who were angry, like, full on upset. Like, my company keeps trying to make us do this dumb breath work, this dumb whatever, you know, and, you know, half the workforce just got laid off, and they're like, okay, let's take a mindful moment. And it's like, totally tone deaf. What do you think is the right moment to introduce those modalities in the workplace? [00:40:33] Speaker B: And first, I'll tell you a time that I did that and I learned, I knew that it wasn't a good time to send an email that everybody take a deep breath. I was asked by leadership to send an email that said, let's all take a deep breath. And the hate responses that we got back were just what I thought, easy for you to say, those types of things. And I feel okay because I gave a heads up, I will do this for you. But I'm telling you, we'll get some angry responses. It will help some people, but it will add salt to the wound to the others. So I'm a big fan of a first day of the week mindfulness moment to ease in to work. For the week and a wrap up at the end of the week. You can offer those lunchtime sessions and there are many benefits to that. I'm not against that, but I think optimal is when everybody starts their week as they're transitioning from their days off into jumping into the week. Because you can set intentions, you can take that time to appreciate them, and the same thing on Friday. So you're setting them up for success at the start of the week and you're releasing them into the wild and hopefully leaving them with a good taste in their mouth as they head into their days off. So I realize that not everybody works on Monday through Friday, but whatever that looks like, the start and the end of their week is an ideal time. [00:41:50] Speaker A: Love it. Love it. You know, I'm curious because I feel like the companies that are doing that, you know, the beginning of the week, mindfulness moment, a wrap up. Honestly, that's, that's a really attuned and you know, a, I would call it almost advanced way to run your program. What are some of the most innovative, attuned, advanced, really tapped in companies doing? What are their wellness programs look like? What are you seeing in terms of the mechanics, the structure, who's running it, how they're talking about it? Walk me through that. [00:42:23] Speaker B: Great question. And it depends on each culture, right? And it depends on the different dynamics and generations. But some of my favorite things are when they get a big speaker to come in and give an uplifting presentation. Because I could go Monday through Thursday, a few days a week, I'm just doing my job. I just want to do a good job. Somebody gives and does a presentation like that and shares their why or the reason. We have purpose in this work. And all of a sudden I'm sitting taller, I'm acting more boldly. I care more about the work that I do. So I could read a report that doesn't mean a lot. But then if somebody came and showed me why these numbers matter sometimes, because I think we get lost in the shuffle of the monotony of our jobs. We all do, right? [00:43:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:43:10] Speaker B: But then if you have somebody that comes that you respect and you look up to, that's telling you that your work matters and explaining it to you in that way. I'm not a big crier, but I've been known to cry at some of those events and that gets me back in and focused. So I think it's high level coaching essentially that you have coming in to give those pep talks. And I think a good pep talk can mean A lot. So is that innovative? I don't know. But I think you could get an innovative speaker that comes in and shows you a sample from the future. And I'm embracing AI you don't have to have that person in the room anymore. And so what does that look like? Maybe they've pre recorded it and you have some images going on behind that allows you to feel more excited about the work that you do. And that's a great way of preventing burnout and helping with burnout a little bit. That if you do it often enough, your team is engaged and they want to stay working where they do. [00:44:06] Speaker A: I agree. I totally agree. I love that. I've loved when speakers, especially if it's something that advances your knowledge and helps you feel like you have more agency over your work, over your mindset, you know, those types of things. I feel like that, you know, there's tons of research, I don't want to misquote the research, but very high level on, you know, burnout. People like feeling like they don't have agency over their work, which causes them to burn out. They don't have autonomy, which causes them to burn out. So having someone that can come in and like pattern interrupt and really help to drive a different conversation I think is incredibly, incredibly powerful. And then also having fun. I think that a lot of employers, I mean, hey, we're humans, we want to have fun. Sometimes I feel like people almost forget they're like, okay, now you're adults, there's completely no fun in your life. You need to just work, pay bills and carry on, you know. And I feel like I look at kids the other day, you know, I was walking at the beach here and I was just seeing these kids like playing with sandcastles and their, you know, their parents and a whole group. And it was so cool to see the adults like throwing, actually they were like throwing sand at each other and like building sandcastles and laughing. And it just, I was like, you know, we need more of this as adults. Like everything is very like structured and programmatic. Like, why aren't we just having more fun? I'm curious, like what are the lessons? Because you've, you've worked with school, school based programs. You've also worked with the corporate initiatives and programs as well. What are things that kids get right that adults are missing and adults urgently actually need to implement? [00:45:44] Speaker B: I think that they, they are so authentic and honest. They, they unfiltered, right. So they're going to, you ask them a question, they're going to tell you, because why wouldn't they tell you the truth? As we get older, we tend to think, how do I nuance this? What's in it for me? What's in it for them? Kids, youth don't really have that filter to a certain extent, and they also embrace having fun. Everything should be fun. I remember being in class and thinking, why this class isn't fun. That teacher had the best intentions, but the more you can bring joy in. And so I think they do a really good job of having recess, having points in their day where they unplug. They just connect with the people they want to connect with and they do something fun. So I think bringing recess back to the workplace and encouraging that, because think of the bonds that you have. You and I are maybe working on a project together, but then we get to go play ping pong or basketball. You name it. We're doing something that gets us out of our comfort zone or back into when we were a kid. And now you and I have a connection that when I send you that email, hey, Tasia, would you mind sending me that? You don't go, oh, man, that Mandy, she's always bothering me. Right? [00:46:50] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:46:51] Speaker B: We were on the same team for this. We did something together. We had a good time. Now it's that people will remember how you made them feel, not what you said. And so how we feel collectively can build that strong team. So that when you ask me for a favor, I'm happy to do it because we have that cohesion. [00:47:08] Speaker A: Agree. I love it. That's why we're doing wells as recess, everyone. Because, you know, getting people to play together and have fun and experience. And also, I know for me, you know, this is part of the science and technology behind recess is, you know, for me and so many other people that when you step away from your work and you exercise your creative muscles in a different way, whether it be solving a puzzle, doing somatic exercises, you know, figuring out how to like, climb over obstacle course with your peers, something else fires in your brain, and sometimes you'll go back to the work that you are doing with, you know, not only a different energy, but a different perspective. And I feel like a lot of companies miss that. People will stay stuck in the same pattern of thinking over and over and over and over again. [00:47:53] Speaker B: And. [00:47:53] Speaker A: And recess in play provides a pattern interrupt where people can come back to the work refreshed and from a different perspective and with greater collaboration and teamwork. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Love it. Yeah. [00:48:06] Speaker A: Perfect plug for recess. [00:48:07] Speaker B: I'm excited for recess. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Yay. Recess. I'm curious. I always love. I call them the urban legends, the myths. What is one myth that you feel like HR leaders believe about employee engagement and wellness programs, that isn't true? [00:48:30] Speaker B: I think a lot of people think it's soft or nice to have, and I don't think they understand it's the undercurrent of the culture. And so if your leadership is not attentive to the needs of the team, or if your teams are not respecting leadership, there's a big disconnect. And the way that you can dissolve that disconnect is through the authentic wellness programs that you can offer where you now see that person does care about me. They know my name when they see me in the hall and they tell me about something that's up and coming that they're excited about that I can get excited about. So when it's about what it means to be human, which is what it means to be focus on well being, I think that's something that I wish people knew more about, that it's not as soft thing that's nice to have. It's critical to your success. Whether again, you're speaking to managing your bottom line productivity, lowering healthcare costs, or showing that you care about your employees, well being can connect the dots between the two. [00:49:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I feel like it's so. Yeah, there's so many people who I've spoken with HR leaders who are like, yeah, yeah, we just like have this, like, program, but they're onto the next thing and then they're in meetings talking about, you know, attrition and disengag engagement. And, you know, hey, the sales team hasn't hit their results for the last three quarters, you know, and I'm kind of looking at them like, maybe we should find a correlate. We should talk about this because there could be a correlation here. But anyway, I digress. I know. Before I move on, I do want to mention your work with the CDC because it's endlessly fascinating what you've done with the CDC with preventive health. What is one counterintuitive finding that you've uncovered while working with the CDC and tell us a little bit more about the work that you've done, actually. [00:50:18] Speaker B: Sure. I got to offer two rounds of the Youth Risk Behavior Survey through Seattle Public Schools. And so we would go out to the high schools and have this paper surveys that they'd fill out saying how they're doing. We'd ask about 100 questions. And in general, I think the youth are doing a pretty good job with partying less, being more responsible as it relates to what our fears are. Drinking less, drunk driving less. Using condoms more. If they're having sex, students are having less sex. So those things I feel were positive signs. We did a lot of marketing about that information that most people aren't doing this, most teenagers aren't doing this. So that you feel like you can say, if you're a teenager and you're on the fence of something, Most of my peers are not doing this. It's okay for me to say no to this. I think the alarming thing is behavioral health. And so the. The harm that's happened with perhaps access to technology, we can't blame it all on that. But I think it's more. Being a teenager or young person is more stressful. Now, in some ways. I'm not going to say all the ways, but I'm more concerned about behavioral health. Less concerned, though still concerned about the choices they're making outside of school. However, vaping makes me lose sleep at night because the access to vapes and how addictive they are. So those are the three things, I guess. One good news, one thing to just keep an eye on the behavioral health. And the vaping causes me great distress. [00:51:54] Speaker A: I know. Aye aye, aye, aye, aye. And it's everywhere. And it's. And it's like. So they're so. The vapes especially, they're so sleek and cool and, you know, like, it's just. Yeah. [00:52:04] Speaker B: And then you're hooked. Right. So as we. As our prefrontal cortex develop. And I just read a great book about how our brains develop from back to front. It's a book called Thrive, written by the leader of Annie E. Casey. Fascinating book about how our brains develop from back to front. And so that prefrontal cortex helps us think, I shouldn't do this because then I might get addicted to it. That hasn't fully developed in youth. And so tobacco for youth is not a good partnership. [00:52:34] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Absolutely. I want to end on one question before we move on to our true or false section. I want to bring it to the employee perspective because I feel like oftentimes we talk very top down. You know, what can employers do? But if you're an employee at an organization and, you know, your workplace wellness program maybe isn't what you want it to be, what can you do? And you know, maybe what is also one insight that every employee should know about workplace wellness. [00:53:10] Speaker B: You and I got to experience this together with our big success. So at the time industry standards for engagement for wellness programs were, let's say, between 60 and 70%. [00:53:19] Speaker A: About right. [00:53:21] Speaker B: We designed a program collectively with Limeade and the organization where I worked in healthcare, where we listened. And it was during a time of negotiation with the unions. And so for two weeks it was like watching a ping pong match. And I would just watch the head of HR who taught me so much without saying a thing about what it takes to listen to all parties involved. So again, those two weeks, I'm this young person who's just used to talking and wanting to show that I know what I'm talking about. And I had to just listen and observe and hear what all the team members were saying they wanted. And then we designed a program. We presented leadership with. This is what we're hearing, this is what we've designed. How does that sound to you? And what we designed was very fair. You did a certain amount of things you earned. I think it was $600 at a time per person. That's probably, let's say about $1,000 per person now for taking steps to focus on your well being. When we presented that to the leadership team, they had to sit in as well and listen to what was happening. So staying curious, but also active listening, not listening for what you're going to say next, focusing in and just listening to different people's perspectives from various aspects of your organization. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I feel like it's something that, you know, we all forget. You know, even just listening to your co worker, listening to what your manager is saying, you know, kind of listening and understanding the why I think is really important. And you know, trying to put yourself in different people's shoes in an organization is so important. I feel like that that's key. And with social, we're so used to like, oh, next, next, next, next, next. Dopamine, Dopamine, Dopamine. You know, to actually like be present and listen and you know, body and here I think is becoming a skill in itself. [00:55:16] Speaker B: Yeah, and let me celebrate your success because we built this program. We looked at rates, they hit 60, 65, 70%. We were getting this weekly report. We weren't believing it. We had somebody on the team that was measuring data, so I wasn't able to even touch the data. All of a sudden we're getting 80, 85%. The deadline's coming up. We hit somewhere between 92 and 94 engagement. It was because all of the stars aligned. All the right people were in the room. Everybody. There was momentum around the well being program. And so you and I can take some credit for that and we should. Absolutely. Yeah. But it was that all the right people were at the top of their game and listening and getting leadership involved that understood what was going on because they had worked their way up and they'd had management training, so. So it was one of the best professional highs I've ever had, was collaborating with you. [00:56:13] Speaker A: That was amazing. I remember. I think we got written up when shrm. Right? Was it or. I forget. [00:56:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:56:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I forget. Yeah. Yay. [00:56:25] Speaker B: So we had mentors that were teaching us what to do. Right. I'm sure there were times that I wanted to speak in a meeting and it was very clear. Hold tight. Hold tight. We're at the end of the story. Once we've done all of the other work, we get to talk about the well being program. [00:56:39] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Absolutely. What a learning experience. I'm so grateful that we got to work together on that. That was such a great. I mean, I learned so much. It was so early in my career, and my eyes were opened to some of the challenges at an organization as big as the one that you were working with. Union negotiate, all the different things that come into play. And opened my eyes, you know, And I think a lot of the things that I learned when we worked together on building that program have shaped, you know, the way I'm approaching wellness now and the way Wells us is approaching wellness as well, which is really cool. So love it, love it, love it. I want to transition to our true or false section. So I'm gonna rapid fire throw a bunch of questions at you and. And if you could give us a true or a false, these are questions from our community that would be amazing. So the first one I'm going to read to you is most corporate wellness programs fail because they're designed for hr, not employees. Is that true or false? [00:57:45] Speaker B: We'll say true. They have the best intentions, but you need to get that input from various departments, various generations, what communication styles. So it's not because of bad intention, but I think it goes much better when people actually listen. [00:58:04] Speaker A: Got it. This next one, remote work. Improved physical health, but damaged mental health. Do you think that's true or false? [00:58:14] Speaker B: I would say it depends. So I know that you don't want to hear that answer, but I think some aspects of our mental health was improved. But I will always miss that camaraderie that I had. And so that's why I'll say false. I believe that when you can collaborate in person with people, it's better. As much as I appreciated working in my pajamas. [00:58:43] Speaker A: Yeah, the collaboration is key. You know, I really think that like people have missed that. It also depends on your personality type. Like some people are solo workers, but some people need that, you know, camaraderie and collaboration and, and yeah, remote work doesn't often provide that unless you're deliberate about going to like a remote workspace or whatever it may be. Anyway, this next one, leadership burnout is more contagious than any virus. [00:59:07] Speaker B: True. I think if the teams do not respect the leadership, people start jumping ship. [00:59:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:18] Speaker B: So I think that it is very contagious, maybe as contagious as some of our biggest diseases right now. And so if leadership is not into it, it trickles down faster than we'd like. You seem surprised. Did you have another thought? I'm open to it. [00:59:37] Speaker A: You know, I feel conflicted on that one, you know, and I think that I agree. I feel like when you have a leader that's burnt out, the morale is, is down. But I've worked at companies with a disengaged, horrible burnout manager. But there were two things that helped to overcome that. They would say the mission of the company I was working for was like, wow, what a great mission. We're all kind of still in it because of that. And what's crazy is junior level employees stepping up and almost becoming the unspoken leader. And I feel like there was that one supernova that kind of overcame help to overcome the situation that's very rare situation to be in, you know, and then what a heavy load for that person because they have to actually like, like overcome the toxic burnout manager, you know, and just to clarify for everyone, being toxic and being burnt out are not one and the same. This person had both, unfortunately. So. But yeah, that's, that was my only. I was like, I was just thinking back to the situation. But anyway, I digress. But yeah, no, I do agree with you though, you know, on your perspective. So. And I think there's so many shapes. [01:00:53] Speaker B: I respect your point too. [01:00:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Yes. How would this Lex1 wearable tech is making people more anxious, not healthier. [01:01:01] Speaker B: I think. Sorry to do it depends again. But I think it has the opportunity to enhance your well being and if it's causing you stress, sadly it might be a reminder that it's been something you've been neglecting. And so I'm going to say I'm a fan of wearable tech. I think there are more benefits than harms. [01:01:23] Speaker A: How about financial wellness? Is inseparable from physical wellness. [01:01:29] Speaker B: True. I've seen people and experienced financial stress and it does impact my well being and so I think we should intertwine it more often. I think it's an opportunity to address financial wellness in the workplace because those two things are so intertwined. It also can help with employee retention. So if you show people how to navigate their expenses and they can live within the. If they can live within their salary at your organization, then that helps with the decision of staying. [01:02:02] Speaker A: How about anonymous feedback on wellness surveys is more accurate than formal surveys. [01:02:09] Speaker B: I will say true on this. So with the CDC Youth Risk Behavior Survey, it is anonymous. And so we were able to say parents or community members would say, how do we know they're telling the truth? I thought because they're not putting their name on it. Sure. Every now and then we would get people who just write D throughout the. It's like the old school PSATs. And so they would answer the same answer. We know to weed that out. And so we did weed those out. But. And so every now and then you're going to get a smart aleck who's giving silly answers to throw it off. But you read that pretty quickly and the technology has advanced to read okay, that's out of alignment with what's happening. So I would much rather hear what people actually think than something that I think my manager might read and it might impact my work. So I like anonymous feedback. [01:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think it allows people to have a little bit more liberty to be more expressive, which is really key. Hybrid workplaces require completely different strategies. And in office programs, I'll say false. [01:03:12] Speaker B: That it's completely because I think you're offering the same program but you're. And you're trying to get the same outcomes. But the way that you approach it through your communications is what's completely different. [01:03:23] Speaker A: Interesting perspective. I love that. [01:03:25] Speaker B: I'm open to yours too. Yeah, yeah. [01:03:28] Speaker A: Oh, sorry, what was that? [01:03:29] Speaker B: I'm open to your thoughts if you ever disagree. I'm open. [01:03:32] Speaker A: You know, I would. I agree with you. You know, I will say that the one thing is time zone. Like, you know, I look at our team where time zone's a huge factor. We've got people, you know, all around the world, man. Managing time zones ends up being a completely different dynamic than, you know, being in the office. And how do you create healthy work life balances for, you know, people when you're like nine hours apart? And what does wellness look like to, you know, across the Globe for that person. So anyway, so that would be like the one element that I would add in. In to that based on our team experience. This last one, I want to end it. This one. This one is spicy. This one is very spicy. Burnout is a leadership failure, not an employee weakness. [01:04:27] Speaker B: I'm going to go with true on this one. If I had to pick, I'd say true. [01:04:32] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [01:04:32] Speaker B: I think again, it's that there are reasons that somebody could be burning out that they could focus on themselves. But when I work in an organization, if my manager is in tune with the fact that I'm starting to burn out and doesn't let me know about the resources that are available early on, that prevention focus or if I'm starting to slip, I think that it's the role of the manager and leadership to be attuned to that. So that doesn't put all the responsibility on them. I'm just saying that I think if you want a productive team and you want to manage those healthcare costs, the best way to do that is to be as in tune as possible. And that is healthy with your team and keeping those. Having those coaches that are keeping people excited about showing up for work. Excited is a strong word, but I love the work that I get to do. And I've had jobs where I start to feel burnout, disengaged, and. And I take responsibility for it. So I'm not saying that it wasn't my fault. There's a part of it. Anytime there's an argument anything, I think it's a percentage and a percentage. But if I had to say it, I think that leadership could in general do a better job of keeping employees engaged, fired up, wanting to show up to work, and retaining top talent. And that best way of retaining top talent is through the coaching. [01:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think too, it's also, you know, the methodology of hiring, like making sure you've got the right people in the right chair. I feel like nothing burns someone out more than being in the wrong job, you know, constantly trying to push them, and they're just not for the job. And I've always been an advocate for, you know, a more dynamic approach to hiring. So, you know, saying, hey, we're gonna, okay, this is the job. These are the skills. And, you know, especially if it's a good person and, you know, we use top grading for our hiring methodology, but if the person's really good, they're committed to the mission, but maybe they're just not in the right role as a company. Being agile and dynamic enough to say, okay, like why don't we move them here versus try to shoehorn them into that. That role. I feel like that that's really important as well. Anyway, I digress. Now let's move on. It's time for our rapid fire. It gets hot in the rapid fire room. I'm going to fire you. A bunch of questions that we've curated as well. And we're looking for like two sentence answers on some of these trending questions that are coming from social media. So this first one is what is the first sign an employee is on the brink of burnout? [01:07:07] Speaker B: Quiet quitting, disengagement. You can, if you're attuned to it, you can start to see somebody is less engaged. You're in a meeting, they start to get it on their phone, they're distracted. [01:07:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. How about this next one? What's the most overrated wellness perk? [01:07:28] Speaker B: Overrated? The water bottle company swag. I think those things agree. [01:07:36] Speaker A: Don't give me your swag. I don't want it. [01:07:40] Speaker B: No, a water bottle's not going to keep me to company. [01:07:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not. It's just going the shelf of like 50 other water bottles I have from like conventions and fairs. So like, no. How about the most underrated wellness perk? [01:07:59] Speaker B: Behavioral health and coaching. [01:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like a day off. I mean, come on folks. In Europe and other countries, people have exponentially more vacation time. I remember my German friends in my 20s, they were like, yeah, we're off. We have five weeks and we're like, doot, doot, doot. And you're scraping and scrapping for two weeks. Folks, we need to give people more time off. Like it's like, it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it makes no sense. People have children, people get sick. Like people just sometimes need like a hot minute. And to make them shoehorn their life into two weeks is crazy. And unlimited PTO with a shame culture. I know I'm going on a soapbox when someone takes the PTO and you're like, oh, tis, tis. You're like, what are you doing? Come on. Like, it just makes no sense. But anyway, love it. [01:08:51] Speaker B: More time off. And I love a surprise half day off. [01:08:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [01:08:56] Speaker B: Leave right now. Go focus on your well being. Right. So there's the time that we need to take care of others. But these surprise afternoons off or half day where you can then just go focus on yourself, whatever that looks like, in hopefully a healthy way, I think is an unexpected perk. Yeah. [01:09:10] Speaker A: Underrated. [01:09:11] Speaker B: I'm. [01:09:12] Speaker A: I'm doing my, like, roundabout clap to that one. I love it. Yet. Facts. These are facts. This next one, a word you overuse in presentations, but you really love engagement. Ooh, that's interesting. You know, I was thinking about it when we were, you know, prepping for your interview. I was like, what would I choose? I don't know. I think about it. I think aligned. I think I say aligned all the time. [01:09:41] Speaker B: It's a good word. My second choice is impact. So I think engagement, aligned, impact are great words. [01:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah, totally, totally. How about one wellness trend that you secretly enjoy? [01:09:54] Speaker B: A plank off. So when people do something that levels the playing field, the reason I love it is oftentimes the most unexpected person wins because they have perseverance. [01:10:05] Speaker A: Agree. Agree. I remember we did a planko. Was I with you when we did that plank off? That was. I was so fun. That was a hoot. [01:10:11] Speaker B: Did you win? I feel like you may have been one of the top winners. [01:10:16] Speaker A: I don't remember. I mean, I was back in my 20s then, so I think my course. [01:10:21] Speaker B: I think usually you think it's gonna be this strong man, and oftentimes it's the person that's at the end that you kind of wrote off. And next thing you know, they win it and they win the prize. [01:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Who? That was a who. I remember that. Oh, my gosh. I remember that so clearly. So fun. I'm curious, what's your own stress busting ritual after a long work day? [01:10:43] Speaker B: It's simple. Getting outside, going for a walk, ideally with family members, Somebody I can talk with, listen to, and share my day with my dog at sunset. [01:10:54] Speaker A: I love that. How your favorite data point to share with skeptical executives. [01:11:00] Speaker B: Easy return on investment. So did you actually manage the healthcare costs? That's fair for them to ask. And I love to slam dunk that one. [01:11:09] Speaker A: I love it. You're like, bam, take that. [01:11:12] Speaker B: You weren't sure. Here are the numbers. You owe less. [01:11:15] Speaker A: And then one of these. [01:11:18] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:20] Speaker A: How about this? I love this one. A wellness myth you'd erase forever working. [01:11:26] Speaker B: Kind of burning the midnight oil. Keep working, go home, work, get home, have dinner with the family, and then go back to work. We all do it. We all have to do it. But I wish we had more wind down time like we used to. [01:11:39] Speaker A: Agree. I couldn't agree more. And this last one, the best low cost stress intervention. [01:11:47] Speaker B: Connection. So whether that's. I've stayed at jobs because I like one co worker. [01:11:53] Speaker A: Same. Me too. [01:11:54] Speaker B: Facts so when I can have connection with somebody, ideally it's somebody that I report to. That's not always the case. But if you have a strong community with connection and a good culture, that's worth leaps and bounds. [01:12:07] Speaker A: Agree. Absolutely agree. And I feel like workplaces, not like a cheesy way, not like, oh, let's do trust walls, but you know, like, how can you make sure that you hire, I mean, don't hire assholes. That's number one. Because an asshole will bring down your culture more than, you know, faster than quicksand. [01:12:24] Speaker B: Right. [01:12:25] Speaker A: Hire good people and, you know, like, allow them to work together without, you know, I feel like I've been in organizations where the manager is trying to pit people against each other. Like, why are you doing that? You know, create an environment where people can be friends and work together and, you know, enjoy each other. I don't understand why you would create divisiveness. [01:12:44] Speaker B: But anyway, goes back to making work fun too, right? When I get to see you at work, I light up. [01:12:50] Speaker A: Yes. 110%. 110%. This next segment we're going to transition to, we're going to break down some of these wild, wild trends. So we all know on TikTok, on the gram, on all the platforms, there are these crazy trends that people are, you know, either doing, talking about showcasing. So I want to get your opinion on a few of these crazy trends. This first one I'm seeing blow up everywhere. AI therapists and people using ChatGPT for therapy. Do you think that this is a scalable innovation or a dangerous shortcut? [01:13:24] Speaker B: I don't love AI therapy. I love AI coaching that feeds into proper coaching so it can serve to get the basics and then you get connected with the right person. Therapy in AI makes me nervous because there's still that potential. It hasn't polished enough where it could still cause harm. One day you might have an AI therapist. I just feel like it's a bit early. [01:13:47] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think, I think it's coming. It's just like fine tuning the models, actually training on, you know, what therapists and psychology, all the data. I just, it's. Yeah, agree. It's not quite, quite there yet. How about four day work week trial? Do you think that this is a productivity miracle or a hidden burnout risk? And I'll unpack this. I actually saw a video on TikTok about someone complaining, you know, about the fact that like they have a four day work week but then they're forced to work like 14 hours and they have every right to complain because that's crazy. They're like, you know what, this is not worth it. Like, I'd rather not. I'd rather almost like not have the Friday off if I, you know, and, and have like a shorter workday than having to cram the thing in 14 hours a day. What do you think about this? [01:14:34] Speaker B: We try this on a team where I worked, and I think it's on a case by case basis by person and industry. And so some people did not, on our team did not want the four day work week. They wanted five days stretched out. They had a family that worked better for them. I counteract that with the amazing feeling of when you have that day to yourself when everybody else is in school, whatever it may be that you live with, where have your day. So I think it depends on individuals and industry. [01:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like it has to be off. Like, not like, okay, now we're gonna make you work 14 hours a day, you know, Monday through Thursday and then on Friday. Oh, could you just quickly hop on? You know, like. No, like, we're not doing that. That's not a thing, you know. Right. How about this one? I've been seeing this, actually. I went to an event yesterday and I went to this event and there was like a bunch of like offices, you know, this creative studio. And I saw someone up in the sleep pod at this office. What do you think about these sleep pods? Is it actually forward thinking or do you feel like it's a PR stunt? [01:15:38] Speaker B: I think it can work for some. Some of our best leaders nap. Also some of our hungover employees nap. So if it's for the right reason, and we've all been there, if it's for the right reason, a good nap can work wonders. Right. It can divide your day into two, give you more energy, but it could be misused. So I would do a pilot study and evaluate productivity and see how it works out. And also our employees more happy knowing they could log in time at the nap pod. I don't hate it. [01:16:12] Speaker A: I agree. Oh, sorry, what was that? [01:16:14] Speaker B: I don't hate it. I would take an opportunity to take a nap if I could. [01:16:18] Speaker A: I nap, you know, sometimes not every day, but sometimes I'm like, whew. It was especially when I'm in deep work mode and there was a lot or a lot of meetings, a lot of travel, I'll take that nap and wake up and like, you know, be ready to go. So, yeah, really interesting. This last one. Gamified wellness apps Engagement tool. Or dopamine trap. [01:16:43] Speaker B: It can be quite competitive. So I love gamifying well being. Some people don't like it so I feel like if I were a professor, teacher and scoring it for those that love gamified well being, let's get in. Let's get competitive. Build it. Especially when you make random teams so you have to meet new people. Some people can't stand it and that's fair too. We should find another way to support their way of getting engaged with well being. [01:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah, couldn't agree more. Now we're going to jump in the dreaded rabbit hole. So our team curated some questions from Reddit related to workplace wellness and working in general. Some of these are juicy, juicy, juicy and this first one I'm excited to read to you. So this was in the anti work subreddit. This person says are jobs meant to be stressful? And I'm going to read this to you because I actually think it's like really important context. So hi all, a bit of a lurker here and looking for advice. This is my first job and my God has it been a struggle. I consistently feel stressed all the time and I just have no motivation to do anything as soon as I leave work. I also struggle with a bit of anxiety and I feel it exasperates everything. I had a referral with OH and was recommended to have bi weekly one on ones with my manager and they aren't happening. I just feel like whenever I ask for support it gets blown back in my face and I just don't know what to do. Feeling at my wits end but I don't want to sign myself off sick as I feel like the problem will still be there when I go back. Whoa whoa whoa. Mandy, what do you think about this one? [01:18:19] Speaker B: This makes my stomach churn. I feel bad for this person. I have empathy. I'd say to schedule some time with the manager, but I'd also say we're fortunate in our generations that you don't have to stay at that employer that may not be the best fit. However, let's do all the things we can do to support this person before they make that decision. Let's get them some behavioral health. Sounds like anxiety is already an issue. So are they. Is that compounded by having this job? We all try to have these different jobs that may or may not be the best fit for us. I've definitely had jobs where I'm in the flow. Sure I have a healthy level of stress, but I'm enjoying the work. I've also had jobs that I have such Sunday night dread. So I think it's figuring out, does this person need some behavioral health support? Is it a connection with a manager? That's not going well. Are they in the right role? So I back with you that when we have this interview, maybe a second interview, we're offered the job, and then we kind of know in the first couple months if it's meant to stay. Oftentimes we stay too long or the other person stays too long. So I think we should be more forgiving when people change careers more frequently because it wasn't a good fit based on this interview session where we're all at our best. [01:19:35] Speaker A: Right, Right, right. Yeah. You know, and I want to add something to this too. I will say, in my early 20s, my first job out of school, you know, wasn't really my cup of tea. Let's just keep it 100. Like, I was not feeling the job, you know, But I do also. I look back, I do chalk a little bit up to the stark transition from college to corporate, you know, And I think that, like, some of my discontent was that, you know, I don't definitely the role was not for me, it wasn't the right fit, not the right culture. I wasn't in the right city. So there was like a whole bunch of things compounding. But I do feel like, you know, if this person is in their early 20s or, you know, whatnot, and this is their first job, there's so much transition during that time and learning how, like, how corporate works, you know, even the schedule, like, for me, I'll just be honest, like, getting up and going to the, you know, my senior year of class, I mean, of college, I had maybe like, like three classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and I was, you know, a spin instructor and, like, chilling, like most of the other time, you know, so, like, like getting dumped into the nine to five was like such a paradigm shift, you know, moving cities, like, all that kind of stuff. So I agree with you. It's like sometimes it's just not the right fit and you've got to, like, call it a wrap. And then sometimes I do feel like there's a transition in your early 20s from college to the corporate environment that is so stark, you know, that is really difficult. And, you know, you're so used to your teachers maybe being a system of support. Your peers and your boss is like, yo, figure this out. [01:21:14] Speaker B: Sometimes you still need the report done at Friday. Yeah. But if you have a colleague that you can talk to. Yeah, yeah. Let's say that happened and you and I could then collaborate with each other. Maybe the manager can't meet with us, but you and I are on the same team and we can help each other. Other. [01:21:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:21:30] Speaker B: Finding somebody that you can talk to at work to see if it's the right fit. [01:21:33] Speaker A: Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. I want to ask you this, this next one. This actually goes back to something we're talking about before, but the way this person puts it is very interesting. So this is in the no stupid question subreddit and this person says, what's stopping us from completely switching to a four day work week if everyone seems to want it? Which we just debated on whether or not it works for everyone. But I actually want to want to, you know, read what this person says. They say I. I've been seriously thinking about bringing this up to our HR team. Most of my co workers, including me, feel way more productive by Thursday and totally drained by Friday. We've joked a few times about how a four day work week would probably improve our output and morale and not hurt it. From what I've seen online, lots of companies that tried it ended up keeping it. So if so many people want it and it seems to work well where it's tested, what's really stopping this from becoming the norm? Is it logistics, resistance from management, or is it just a fear of change? I'm hoping to make a case that's more solid than we're all tired. Would love to understand the real reasons behind this. I'm curious in your perspective on this. [01:22:36] Speaker B: I think you can make the case by saying that I could be more productive during these certain hours and that some people do want that five day. So I'm not a fan of everybody's going to do a four day work week. I am a fan of let's pilot this, see what happens. Were we able to get the same amount of work done over that amount of time? We am I. Is my morale better? Is my. The way that I show up at work better? Because now I get this extra day. So I think I'm a big fan of a pilot, less a fan of across the board. Everybody's going to do four days because one person on your team might love that. They have five days. [01:23:12] Speaker A: 100. Yeah. [01:23:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:23:16] Speaker A: And I feel like work, especially the way that we work right now, can be a little bit more fluid. Like I've let my team, like there's some people who, I mean they're like the morning I knock everything out in the afternoons I need time to like, pick up my kids and, you know, do other stuff. I'm so down with that. And like, as long as you're getting stuff done, we're hitting our KPIs, you know, you do you boo. Like, I'm totally fine. [01:23:37] Speaker B: Totally agreed. I think it's. Every person is different. They might want to start work at 6 in the morning their time. Great. Yeah. Whatever it takes for you when you're able to get that done and get us what we need, then. Then there's a lot of room for flexibility and malleability. [01:23:52] Speaker A: Couldn't agree more. Last thing before we come out of the Reddit rabbit hole. This one was in the jobs subreddit. They say I am 31 and I've just experienced burnout for the first time. Oh. Oh my goodness. I remember being there. Let me read this to you. So they said my mental health has declined and going to work feels impossible now. I didn't even go to work today because. Because of anxiety and exhaustion. Oh my goodness. This gives me chills. My head is fried and I can't make any sales at my job anymore. I'm sure that my boss is about to fire me. I've tried my best and I've tried to push through, but I feel as if I failed. I don't know what to do now. I don't have a job lined up and my mental energy is shot. Anyone else been here and what did you do? How did it go for you? What are your thoughts on this one? [01:24:39] Speaker B: I don't think this person has failed. I think they've learned what they need for their unique personality. There's times that we could. I could. So what I. Let's take sports for example. I could play for a season. I couldn't play all year long. And so there are times that you look at and you get to know yourself and the organization and whether or not it's a good fit. And is that manager willing to work with finding you at your best and keeping you moving at your best? And are you willing to learn about yourself? So I like you. It sounds like quite productive in the morning, tend to taper off. I've had jobs where I don't want to show up either because it's bored, I'm bored at work, or they're asking me too much. And so you have to learn to focus on what you need. And so if the job is too boring, asking for a bigger challenge, if the job is overwhelming, you have too much on your plate. Be honest in that it's not sustainable for you to do too much work. Eventually you will burn out. So I think it's less of failure, more an opportunity to learn what you need moving forward. [01:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And what, you know, for that person, I feel I've been there, you know, and I think probably around the same age, around 31, I was just like completely burnt out trying to start a company, trying to do this, trying to do that, and just giving yourself grace and you know, accepting where you are and you know, trying to give yourself some space too. But like, I remember when I went through burnout, I really, I needed like six to eight months just to kind of like really get my brain back working. And you know, I feel so fortunate I was able to take a little bit of time away. You know, thanks, thank, thank God to my family who supported me during that time and like helped me. But I needed to be like off. I needed to like not push anything forward, you know, I know not everyone has that luxury, but if you can find ways to give yourself mini break, you know, and be curious if you, you know, after you come out of the fog, like you need time to just go offline and relax. But you know, finding things that, and situations that make you feel energized again, I feel like that that's what helped me at least. [01:26:57] Speaker B: And back to what you were saying about learning from youth and then they skip from college to a job. Think about when we were in school, you had summers off, right? So you got to recharge and then show up. I don't know that everybody was excited to show back up to school, but you were at least had your time off and the same thing when you finished college and you had that day off maybe per week when you're in school and then jumping into this full time role. So I don't think it should be seen as punishment if you're able to occasionally maybe get laid off and you can rely on other means and then jump back in. So I feel like that's, that's a strategy for success for the right people. [01:27:37] Speaker A: I agree. We don't talk about that enough actually. I love that you said that. I feel like that's really important. Like, yeah, in college, in school you had those breaks as adults, they're like, hi, we're gonna throw you a bunch of things, Bills, children, family, whatever it may be. And you need to show up here every, you know, five days and like sometimes work in the weekends and like, you know, yay. It's just it makes no sense. It's unsustainable. It's like, yeah, why can't we have, you know, a month or two or, you know, whatever it may be in like, these summers and breaks and things like that where people can. I feel like the prevalence of burnout will be. Would be lower. You know, humans are not robots, and expecting people to work unsustainable schedules for their whole lives makes no sense. And like, architecting a pause, I think is one of the smartest strategies that you can do if you can figure that out. [01:28:29] Speaker B: We're not robots yet. [01:28:31] Speaker A: No, totally not yet. At least not yet. Anyhow. Our last segment, what's in the bag? I love this segment because we get to find out, you know, what are some of the essentials that you carry around in your bag for health, wellness, well being, or just random. So, Mandy, what is in your bag? [01:28:53] Speaker B: I wanted to bring it back to basics and think about some of the things that I use that are surprising, affordable, and totally doable. And so once a week, an apple cider vinegar hair wash works for my hair. So I didn't say the brand because. Good question. Yep. There's no one brand. Wherever you can get it. Good quality apple cider vinegar hair wash works wonders for my hair. Curly hair. And then coconut oil on your hair, your face, and you can use it as a dental rinse. Surprising. Those are the two that come to mind. I've become more excited with different lipsticks as well, because I think when you have your lipstick on, the rest of your day can pop a bit more. [01:29:44] Speaker A: I'm a lipstick gal. Let's get it popping as soon as the lipstick. We're ready. [01:29:51] Speaker B: Yep. Put the lip stain on now. Yep. [01:29:53] Speaker A: I love it, I love it. [01:29:57] Speaker B: I love a lip stain. Yeah, A lip stain that can last a lot longer, but I kind of like the act of reapplying it. And if to. To be open to all genders. Lip balm with that minty buzz is also kind of a good. A quick invigorator. [01:30:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love the minty, minty mintiness and anything. Actually, you will drink mint tea in the afternoons, like for digestion and just to kind of like revitalize my senses. So, yeah, I agree with the minty mintiness. I love it, I love it. Those are all cool, cool things. Thank you so much, Mindy. By the way, where can we find you online? Like, what are some of the things that you're working on right now? Before we end here, we'd love to. [01:30:38] Speaker B: Dive into that thank you for asking. My email is Mandy at. Well, W E L L Balanced. B A L A N C E D Center C E N T E R dot com. And that's the website, too. Wellbalancedcenter dot com. We have a few fun pilots going on and we keep evolving it. And that's how I stay engaged and excited about when I get up every day, the work that I'm doing. Now I finally get to be a strategist, and that's been really enjoyable. [01:31:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. And I know that we're working on some cool stuff. We're working on, you know, a program together where we really help people tap into who they are, you know, and you and I have been talking about this core philosophy. We spend so much time in school learning about, like, facts and history and whatnot, but we don't really break down and understand who we are, how we're wired, how we're supposed to show up, what are the things that are optimal for us. And I'm so jazzed that I get to bring your expert expertise and experience into helping build this program that we'll be rolling out. So thrilled. Just thrilled and honored. It's always an honor and so fun to work, work with you, like, and it's crazy. Over the last. I mean, it's probably been like 20 years or ish, you know, I'm just so grateful to have you as a mentor and advocate, you know, as someone I can, you know, always just go to. And you model such great behaviors in terms of, well, being and mindset and just like, you know, your family and everything and being a great. Just a great human and citizen. So I'm just so grateful. Grateful to know you and have you in my life. So thank you, thank you, thank you. [01:32:14] Speaker B: I was going to say the same thing about you, that I'm honored that I get to collaborate with you. And every time we connect, it feels like lights go off that connect us and we get excited about the work that we get to do. So kind of fireworks to each other. Yeah. [01:32:26] Speaker A: Yes. Couldn't agree more. I think it's Aries. [01:32:29] Speaker B: Yes. [01:32:30] Speaker A: Could be the Aries fire. Thank you, Mandy, so much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on the podcast. We will link up to, well, Balance center in the show notes and we will have to do this again because we could talk forever. So thank you, thank you, thank you.