HEALING THROUGH DARKNESS | "THE WELLZEST PODCAST" WITH DR. CHAD SCOTT, THERAPIST, TEACHER & AUTHOR |

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wells S podcast. You are in for such a treat today because I have Dr. Chad Scott, who is a therapist, an avid traveler on the podcast, and I can't wait to talk about dark tourism and his new book. I want to actually go through everything that Dr. Scott has done, so let me just introduce you really quickly. Dr. Chad Scott is a therapist and educator who turned profound personal, personal adversity into a mission to explore how travel can support healing. In his critically acclaimed book, beyond the Darkness, he explores dark tourism sites like Auschwitz and Ground Zero, not to sensationalize, but to uncover what they reveal about grief, resilience and the human capacity to heal. Blending lived experience with clinical insight, Dr. Scott brings a powerful perspective on using movement history and meaningful travel as tools for emotional growth, especially in the wake of trauma, loss or major life transitions. Dr. Scott, I'm so excited. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Yes. Such a jazz. And we were just connecting before about our passion for travel and exploration and kind of going to those places. [00:01:19] Speaker B: Travel is a beautiful thing. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Totally my favorite thing. I always say to people, anyone who knows me knows this. Travel and a good walk are my forms of therapy sometimes. Good trip and a good walk. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Well. [00:01:36] Speaker B: I had a liver transplant last year and. [00:01:40] Speaker B: I was kind of backsliding. It was in March and it's kind of cold and crappy weather in Minnesota in March. And I. I went to la of all the places. So I was in your neck of the woods. Yeah. And out of all the things to do in la, I was in the Hollywood Forever Cemetery and the Pierce Westwoods Cemetery. And that's actually where my idea for the book came to me was when I was out in LA recovering for my transplant so I could get some walking in and that's where I chose to hang out. [00:02:08] Speaker A: No way. What was your experience? I'm curious, Was that your first time in the Hollywood Forever Cemetery and what was. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it was my first time in those cemeteries. I've been to LA a small handful of times, but yeah, I was in the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, you know, visiting Toto and Judy Garland and one of my favorite singers. [00:02:32] Speaker B: Now I can't think of his name, but my gosh, no worries. Yeah, anyway, yeah, Burt Reynolds and. Yeah. The Ramone Brothers or. Yeah, they're not brothers, but the Ramones. A lot of people. Yeah. And then over at Pierce Westwood they have, you know, Marilyn Monroe and one of my favorite, Rodney Dangerfield. [00:02:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's right. You know, is it just me, or do you feel like the. Do you feel the energy when you're in places like that? Do you really feel the. Like. [00:03:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, actually coming back to me. So Chris Cornell, you know, he. One of my favorite singers growing up, and. And, you know, and when you. When you stand there, you, you know, for one, you know, I like parks and things like that, but going to a cemetery is like going to a park. You can, you know, they have benches and. And then you walk around and like, okay, there's. There's Chris Cornell. There's Burt Reynolds, and, you know, and it's just beautiful and serene and it's relaxing, and you get. Get your steps in, and you, you know, and. And you go. And, you know, know when can you ever be alone with Chris Cornell or Burt Reynolds, you know, and you just, you know, thank them, and you think of them and you think about their struggles, and you think about their successes and, you know, and actually, both those people, I mean, they had a lot of struggles and a lot of successes and, you know, and kind of going there and reflecting on that. And. [00:03:55] Speaker B: When you do that, you know, you're walking on hallowed ground. When you're on a cemetery, in a lot of the places in dark tourism, you are literally on hallowed ground. And, you know, you. You get these such profound reflections by being there, and it hits you on such an emotional level. So I don't think people realize how much, because maybe, you know, 10% of things you, you know, we can perceive and think about and, you know, and that's 10%, but there's so much going on in the back of our brains. That's computing. Just like a computer. There's so much going on in the background. And dark tourism is like that, where there's, you know, you go there, but, you know, you'll never forget these experiences. They resonate so much emotionally. They burn into your hippocampus, and they. And you just. They're with you forever. And sometimes they come back and sort of repay you for visiting these places. And I'm sure we'll get into that. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. You know, it's so interesting. I was always. I have to be honest, I always had a fear of cemeteries. You know, I was like, ooh, I don't really know. Like, I feel, you know, it's a little spooky, right? And, you know, as I've traveled more, gotten older, and, you know, I totally agree with you. The reverence, the hallowed ground. And for me, it was really interesting. Once I was going to. I was living in St. Martin during COVID at one point, and we were flying to St. Bart, and there were all of these people dressed in white on the plane. I was like, hey, what is happening? Like, why are all these people dressed in white? Someone had this, like, cool wig. And turns out they were on, you know, kind of like a pilgrimage to see Johnny Holiday, which is, like a famous French singer on a pilgrimage to go to his. His. His grave. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Wow. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah, he went to the grave, too. We saw them all there, and people were crying and everyone was singing. I mean, it was actually this really moving, beautiful experience. I was like, wow, this is so cool. They're traveling and, you know. Yeah. And my boyfriend was talking to one of them, and, you know, they were just talking about how much they, like, love his music. And just to be there to celebrate him was so powerful. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I talk about going to Pierre Lachaise, which is in. It's probably, you know, might be one of the most beautiful reverend Gothic cemeteries anybody will ever go to, but it's in Paris and. Yeah. And, you know, Oscar Wilde is there and. [00:06:21] Speaker B: Frederic Chopin, the composer, but Jim Morrison from the Doors is there, and that's why I wanted to go there. But, you know, I loved Jim Morrison when I was a kid. You know, I remember, you know, driving around in my little truck when I was 16, 17 years old, going to parties and trying to find the girls, and. [00:06:43] Speaker B: You got Light My Fire in the background. And, you know, and it's like going to those places is. You know, it brings back those memories, and it's just. It's. Yeah, it's much more profound than the average person would think. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. You talk about your love for the Doors and, you know, memories from childhood. Tell me about you as a child. Like, what was your childhood like and how do you feel? Like, were there key moments that you feel, like, influenced the work that you are doing today? [00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So I could literally take this camera and show you outside and that. That I. It's the hockey rinks. There's outdoor hockey rinks. And in the building I'm in was the. Was the clinic I grew up in or the clinic I went to that I. When I grew up in. Now. Now it's different. And I have my therapy clinic in here. But. So hockey was a major thing during my childhood. I was a sports nut. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Wasn't an academic person at all. I. You know, I barely got by in school. And. [00:07:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it was about sports and having fun, but we did a lot of traveling as a kid and I think I learned a lot more on my trips than I ever did in a classroom. I enjoyed history, I enjoyed, you know, those types of things, classes, but I never tried. [00:08:05] Speaker B: But those. I think we're the fuel. We went to visit relatives around the world or around the country, and we'd stop at a lot of historical sites and museums and things like that. [00:08:17] Speaker B: And when I got older, I started traveling on my own. And then I traveled a lot with my son. I was a single dad ever since he was 4. [00:08:27] Speaker B: And we went, you know, I brought him places every year and, and really remembered how much it was part of my education growing up. And I think that's why I got to college. And then I started taking more human service psychology history classes and really started excelling in school and I ended up with a doctorate. [00:08:51] Speaker B: But I think it was my travel experiences that allowed me to get to where I'm at for sure. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Or at least a big part of. [00:09:00] Speaker A: It was there one trip, one place early on that really moved you, that stood out to you, that was transformative? [00:09:09] Speaker B: Gosh, you know, that's a really good question. [00:09:16] Speaker B: You know, I think the places that are the most different are the ones that resonate the most. When I was young, you know, the one that keeps hitting me a little bit is. [00:09:30] Speaker B: You know, San Diego, but I don't know why, you know, San Diego with the military. We did visited my uncle who was in the military there in the Navy and toured the ships and, you know, and I, for some reason that always has stuck with me. And just like that was my first big trip. I think that was my first airplane trip. [00:09:50] Speaker A: So. [00:09:51] Speaker B: So it was kind of a culture shock in a good way. I remember going to Disneyland and it was just like such a moving experience. I think my brain, when I think what was my most transformative young trip? I mean, I think my first trip and that was my first big trip, I guess. [00:10:10] Speaker A: I love San Diego. I lived in San Diego for probably like four years and it was actually the place that drove my catalyst to move to California. [00:10:21] Speaker B: You can't beat the weather and. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:24] Speaker B: You know, when you got Old Town, I mean, it's just such a, the zoo. I mean, there's so many. So beautiful for a, for a five year old that's never been anywhere. Yeah, that was amazing experience. Yeah, magical. Definitely. [00:10:37] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now walk me through, you know, some of the things over the last few years that you feel like travel has, has taught you, you know, and how has Travel been a. [00:10:51] Speaker A: You know, maybe meditative practice during some of your struggles? [00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, you know. [00:10:58] Speaker B: I think a lot of people. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Especially, you know, my specialty in travel is dark tourism. And I think a lot of people go on dark tourism for a lot of the same reasons they would go on religious pilgrimages. You're asking those big questions, the existential types of questions. When I was literally dying of a liver disease, I went to Jerusalem and I went to Egypt and that's when I went to Auschwitz and Berlin and a lot of these places that, and I always ended up in more of the darker places because that was my interest. And I, you know, actually when I was in the cemetery. [00:11:45] Speaker B: In la, that's when it came to me. It's like, man, these experiences really, you know, why do I find myself in these places all the time? And it's because of all the reflections and things I'd get. So I'd go to these places and you just start seeing little pieces of yourself in all these places. And it's not that you go there with that intention. I always went there, you know, for basically two reasons. One is my interest in history. You know, because you're walking on that hallowed ground and you get to see, you know, where they stormed the beaches or they, you know, you know, whatever event happened. [00:12:16] Speaker B: But also you go to pay your respects. You know, when I, you know, storming the beaches, you go to Normandy and you, you, you reflect on, gosh, this must have been terrifying. This must have, you know, like the, the, the, you know, the sense of, you know, honor for, you know. [00:12:37] Speaker B: Fighting for your country and, you know, and the resolve that they had and you just develop this reverence and when you do that and you also empathize. So when you say, when I say reverence plus empathy, you know, equals really profound reflections. And they really can, you know, teach you a lot of lessons. And every site I've been to has taught me different lessons. Like in Hiroshima, you know, you go in and, and I wasn't really expecting this. Like, I've always, you know, like, okay, was it wrong probably that to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But when you go there and you're in there with these school age children and they're looking at murals on the wall that look just like them that, you know, that were from the day the bomb dropped. And it's like the guilt I had going through there, I never thought how, how guilty I would feel going through there being. And that's a lot of, I came out of there, I've always been against nuclear war. [00:13:44] Speaker B: But when you come out of there and you come out as I'm going to really stand up for this, it gives you kind of that sense of wanting to fight for that. [00:13:56] Speaker B: I already saw one of the questions that you had been thinking of asking and, you know, what's a place that you had a hard time leaving? Hiroshima. I did not want to leave Hiroshima. [00:14:06] Speaker A: Wow. [00:14:09] Speaker B: And I think it's because it's like I wanted to help. It's like I just didn't feel good leaving and I'm kind of tearing up with this. Because. [00:14:19] Speaker B: You just feel so guilty. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so true. You know, I think that that's the thing that people. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Sometimes forget about travel. You know, when you go to places in the world where especially your country has done something that is difficult or, you know, horrifying to another country, it's hard not to feel the burden of that. It's hard not to look at the people, the next generation, who absolutely, you know, or, you know, even the current generation, we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, trouble now. But how do you look people in the eyes and see their humanity and not feel a sense of guilt? [00:15:03] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. You know, I work two days a week on a Native American reservation. And. [00:15:11] Speaker B: So they're still affected by what we did to them. You know, we think of, you know, I walked the Boston Freedom Trail a couple months ago or a couple weeks ago, and it's like, okay, you feel this, like, honor like this, like, hey, we defeated the British and we became independent. And it's like fireworks and happiness and, you know, we won. But then you go to places like Wounded Knee and, you know, and it's like, we didn't, you know, America wasn't founded on just good things. You know, beating the British. We really hurt people. Go down to the Whitney plantation in New Orleans or by New Orleans, that is in the United States. That, to me, is what affected me the most out of all the places I've been in direct tourism in the United States, because it tells the history of slavery from the slave's point of view. It's not just this. It's a beautiful plantation, but it tells it from the slavery point of view. And the main house is just a pass through. And you see the monuments and the heads on the pikes and the. And the stories and it's like, it's. You leave there and, you know, obviously slavery is like, probably the worst injustice we've ever done, but as a nation. [00:16:28] Speaker B: But. [00:16:31] Speaker B: So I left there and I Had a lot of reflections, a lot of emotions. And I'm a therapist, and it's like, it just made me want to work even harder for kids, because the kids that were there, it really talked a lot about the children of the slaves. And. And you just. You leave there and you want to be a better father, you want to be a better human being. You want to, you know, you help kids that are being abused. And. [00:16:57] Speaker B: So it. Even though you're reflecting on things that happened hundreds of years ago, in a lot of cases or even thousands of years ago, you know, there's relevance in today's life. And that's really what my book is about, is, you know, going to these places, reflecting on the horrors of a lot of these places or the people that are buried in the ground, you know, and they might not have had stories like Auschwitz or something, but, you know, like Judy Garland, she had her own struggles. And, you know, and you go and you reflect on these, and they etch emotionally and they. You. You take their lessons. You. It's kind of like they. They passed a torch in a little. In a way where it's like you. You can. You don't just remember them. You kind of fight for, you know, they didn't die in vain. [00:17:45] Speaker A: Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. I love what you said about the children. I think about that, too. I mean, like, you know, oftentimes you go to a place and. And that's in conflict, in war, or, you know, people are being subjugated, and you look at the innocent children and, you know, they. They didn't choose this. You know, they're being brought into a world where, you know, their circumstances beyond their control. And this is. What's happening will impact the trajectory of their lives infinitely. And, you know, generations to come. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:18:19] Speaker A: To sit with that is just such weight, you know. [00:18:23] Speaker B: So, you know, there's an Ojibwe belief that trauma is passed on seven generations, but through the study of epigenetics, they found that that is actually kind of true. Where. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Your DNA, when you go through such a trauma, especially if you go through a trauma like cultural genocide, like Native Americans or slavery, or just being abused over and over by a parent that actually alters a person's the way they express their DNA through their generations. And it takes about seven generations for it to kind of resolve. And so we really are still suffering for the wounds of our ancestors. And, you know, and some people suffer more than others, and some races and cultures suffer more than others. So. [00:19:17] Speaker A: So important to think, you know, and it's like, how do we do the work now? Do you find that in therapy and your practice? Do you have clients who come in, you know, they're stuck in a pattern, and as you unpack their lineage, you know, history, that there are generational wounds that are driving their story and some. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Of their trauma, generational trauma, historical trauma, is very real, without a doubt. And that's why I think a lot of these dark tourism places are very important, because they not only give voice to the people that suffered, but they give voice to the people that are still suffering. And, you know, for example, somebody who is a Native American who, you know, might be struggling, trying to get back to their roots, because getting back to your roots and learning about your roots and, you know, there's a lot of healing in cultural practices. And going out to a place like Wounded Knee. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Or. [00:20:24] Speaker B: There'S a place in Mankato, Minnesota, here, where several Native Americans were hanged, and it was actually green lighted by Abraham Lincoln. [00:20:33] Speaker A: Horrifying. [00:20:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And going to places like that is healing where, for example, people who were in the Vietnam War, oftentimes they'll go back to Vietnam many years later, even though they suffered with ptsd, or even Normandy or wherever they fought, and they'll go back there many years later. It's very emotional, but it's also very healing. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Of course. [00:21:00] Speaker A: It literally gives me chills just thinking about that. [00:21:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:04] Speaker A: I want to take a step back, and I want to have you define dark tourism. There's all these different definitions. There's controversy out there, you know, dark tourism, whether it's ethical, whatnot. But I would love to just have you actually define what it means to you. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So I'm gonna go off what the researchers say. So dark tourism, I mean, it's been around for millennia. I mean, they, you know, back in the day, they used to, you know, and they still do, but go to the Battle of Marathon and, you know, the Colosseum, you know, the witch trials. And I mean, so dark tourism is. [00:21:42] Speaker B: As long as people have memorialized others, dark tourism has been around. About 83% of all Americans have actually gone to dark tourism spots, and another 10% were hoping to or planning to. So it's very common. So in 19. In the 1990s, like 96 or 98 or something, there were researchers by the name of Lennon and Foley, I believe, and they coined the term dark tourism. [00:22:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So it's an. Actually an academic discipline. So it's an academic term. So it sounds sensational, but it's actually an academic term to Describe going to places. So this is the definition now. So it's going to places that are associated with death, trauma, suffering, disaster and the macabre. [00:22:31] Speaker A: How did you first get into dark? How did you transition from like, hey, I'm going on holiday and woo to you know, going to places that have such weight and are somber and you know, are, you know, born out of difficult circumstances and situations? [00:22:47] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, my whole, well, almost my whole chapter, chapter one is that's what it's about. It's how did I become a dark tourist? So it really started off with going to these historical places with my parents. [00:22:59] Speaker B: In college. I really liked anthropology, that's probably my favorite class. So then you started learning about taboo subjects and what is taboo. And so I started going to places that are a little more taboo and you know, and I remember being at a, at Sloppy Joe's, it's a bar in Key West. It was, it was Ernest Hemingway's favorite bar. Sloppy Joe's. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Yes, I've been there. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah, great place. And a guy came over to us, you know, he was a local and he, he was saying, well, you guys should check out the cemetery. It's really weird and quirky and you wouldn't think about going there. I'm like, gosh, go to a cemetery. Okay, we'll check it out. Well, so we went there the next day, you know, and it had all these, you know, interesting epitaphs, like, I see I told you I was sick. And you know, devoted fan of Julio Iglesias. And you know, just I remember one had his shirt off and he's like flexing his muscles on, you know, his picture on his tombstone. And it's like. And then there's chickens running around, you know, like they are in Key west, but in the cemetery. And it's all above ground or a lot of it is above ground. And so it was really an interesting place. So. [00:24:09] Speaker B: Me and my girlfriend at the time, who became my wife, who became my ex wife, who we went to cemeteries. Every time we went somewhere we went to one or two cemeteries. And she was very much a historical, enjoyed history too. And so we'd end up in a lot of more dark related history. [00:24:32] Speaker B: And I think I sort of insidiously got into it like, or. [00:24:38] Speaker B: You know, I'd go to maybe like, I would say lower level types of places, you know, graveyard, I wouldn't say mid level graveyards. And you know, some just, you know, historical sites like the 911 memorial, which is, you know, that's a pretty profound Place. Yeah, Pearl harbor and, you know, places in the US especially. [00:24:58] Speaker B: And. [00:25:00] Speaker B: I just, yeah, slowly just started finding myself gravitating towards those places. So everywhere I went, I would search out these places. And I didn't do it on a necessarily. Like, I wasn't looking for dark. I didn't even know what the term dark tourism was. I just ended up in these places. So it wasn't until maybe three years ago that I read this article in National Geographic. I was actually in Oslo and love Oslo. Yeah, yeah, great place. I was in Oslo and I read this article and it talked about dark tourism and that it was an academic discipline and that a lot of the places I had been to is considered dark tourism. And the person that they were interviewing in this article was a guy named Dr. Philip Stone, and he's the director of this Institute for Dark Tourism Research. Anyway, I recognized then and there that I was a dark tourist. And you know, fast forward a few months. I. Well, several months I put out the concise edition of my book. So I had my transplant, went through this concise edition or wrote this concise edition of the book. And this Philip Stone contacted me, he sent me an email. And so we've kind of developed this friendship. And he actually wrote the forward of the book that, that I have out now. So that was coming. Coming full circle. [00:26:17] Speaker A: Amazing. When you were telling, like when you talk to people and said, like, hey, you know, I just visited this graveyard or I went where. I mean, what were people's reactions? What did your family think? [00:26:30] Speaker B: That's just Chad. You know. [00:26:34] Speaker B: I guess I have always been. Maybe, maybe, you know, I wouldn't say I beat to this, you know, a different drum or whatever, but, you know, because I think a lot of people do go to these places. You know, know, everywhere I've, you know, how many people have gone to Arlen National Cemetery? Well, that's really dark tourism. You know, you go there and you, you. I remember like I'm a pilot and standing with John Glenn or Jimmy Doolittle, these, you know, these famous pilots that. The Challenger crash. I remember being in fifth grade or whatever it was when the Challenger crashed and you know, and that was such a, you know, something. Talk about being etched in your ipocampus. It's like, like I remember when they like very moment and you know, you go there and, you know, jfk and it's like, it's so moving and it's like that just doesn't leave you. I mean, so you can go to a museum, you can read A book, you can, you know, watch a movie, a documentary, and you learn these things, but typically they just kind of, you learn them, you retain them for a while, they go away. And unless you reinforce it with other learning, you know, they typically go away. What you learn. But when you go to a dark tourism spot and again when you're standing on hallowed ground and you don't, you learn it on such an emotional level and intelligence, you know, emotional intelligence can, is fluid, it can go up and. But when you're, you're like the, you're just regular academic type of intelligence, it doesn't increase. You're basically stuck with what your God gave you. But emotional intelligence, you know, and that's why I think a lot of people like podcasts and I let you know, because you can increase your emotional intelligence. And. But these experiences, I think in terms of return on investment and bang for your buck, maybe this and psychedelics maybe might be the most life changing things. You know, actually just listen to what your recent episode on psychedelics. So. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, you did? [00:28:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And I, I was going to tell you, I almost place everything related to dark tourism into what he said about psychedelics. And it'd be almost similar because it is so life changing. Because, you know, I would say both psychedelics and. [00:28:52] Speaker B: You know, dark tourism, I mean, it's kind of like this, you know, astronauts talk about this overview effect where they go up to space and they see how small they are in the world and they see how large the universe. Sometimes they feel this profound depression when they see that, like, oh my God, I am this, this like I'm, I'm a nothing. My life is tight, you know, but it changes their life for the better once they get the return back home. And they, they talk about how moving it was and dark tourism is like that. It's like you go through these places, a lot of them. I literally do not like being there. I feel sick being there. Auschwitz, oh my God. You know, it's like that was my guts. I felt like throwing up walking through Auschwitz. You know, you go down into that gas, there's a gas chamber that's still standing. And you go in there and you envision the people. It's just this like giant basement looking thing. But you go in there and you just. The sadness seeps through the cracks. I mean, you see the people envision them dropping one by one. And then you walk out past the crematorium furnaces and they have rail tracks and it just hits you. It's like, oh my God, this is just. [00:30:12] Speaker B: It's hard to even put words on. And then you walk out the other side. It's like, you walk out, you're a changed person when you're on the other side of that building. And a lot of these dark tourism spots are like that. And you go in. [00:30:30] Speaker B: As yourself, but you come out a better, changed version of yourself. And I would say, you know, life. It puts life into perspective. You appreciate life more. You have much more gratitude. [00:30:44] Speaker B: You love deeper. You know, you learn to stop and smell the roses. You know, it slows life down. And you appreciate your life a lot more. And you're just much more committed to helping people because a lot of atrocities happened. And it's like, that doesn't sit right with you. And when you leave the other side, you're just much more committed to being a good person. So. [00:31:09] Speaker B: Yeah, these places are really significant. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Incredible that you're able to reframe, you know, like going to the place. I have not been to Auschwitz. I have not had the opportunity to go. For me, too. I think also by design, it's just something that's so difficult that I can't even. I mean, I feel like I'm gonna have to really mentally prepare to go. [00:31:30] Speaker B: And you do. You do. If you didn't go with that mindset, if you went in kind of as a tourist, flip it, right? That. That's. That's. To me, it's dishonorable to just kind of do that. And. [00:31:43] Speaker B: You can actually hurt, I believe, like, when you. When you don't have empathy, when you go in just kind of as like, oh, look at these interesting things that happened. You know. [00:31:54] Speaker B: You actually are hurting not only their memory, but you're hurting yourself because you're not as empathetic to people. You desensitize yourself to suffering. But if you go in with reverence and this, a lot of empathy, you know, you learn to empathize more. [00:32:10] Speaker B: You develop a greater range of emotions because of the emotions you felt. [00:32:16] Speaker A: Yes. The anger would be hard for me, though. Like, how could we. How could we. Yeah, you know, as you're saying with Hiroshima, like, how. How could we as humans do this to each other? And why do we continue to do things like that? That's a whole other podcast. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Multiple theories. Yeah, I don't. And I wish I had the answers for those. But, you know, you definitely. You go. And I want to address, like. Like, you know, are you going there to dwell in other people's suffering? And. No, because I think that's one of the misnomers with dark tourism is you're, you know, for example, Auschwitz and the Whitney Plantation and a lot of these places they, you know, the victims are, you know, the survivors, I should say, are the ones that are, are advising these people. And it's not, you know, it's not people going in there to try to make money. So if it's somebody just going and trying to make money off other people's suffering, I would say avoid those at all costs. Kind of like the place in Pennsylvania where the. Gosh, Was it Flight 93? I'm blanking out, but there was a farmer that was charging people to go see the crash site after the crash in nine, 11. Yeah. So, you know, then the, obviously that was seen as very unethical and it is. And you know, but now it's a, the, the government bought it and it's a historical site and the, the families have had a say in how they want their stories told. And so. Yeah. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Do you feel like, you know, there's something in travel that unlocks things that therapy, you know, traditional therapy can't? [00:34:01] Speaker B: Oh, for sure, for sure. [00:34:05] Speaker B: I think there's a lot of things that unlock that traditional therapy can't. You know, I don't think there's any growth in comfort zones. And you know, and I like to tell my clients comfort zones are for couch potatoes. And therapy is, you know, it's a tool and it works well. But. [00:34:28] Speaker B: But it's typically, you got to do the work outside of therapy. You know, you can listen or you can read a, read a self help book and it's going to do absolutely nothing if you don't, you know, actually put in the work. And, you know, when you face your fears, no matter what they are, when you step outside of your comfort zone, no matter how small your comfort zone is, I mean, for some people, like, you know, I didn't go to Auschwitz the first day I became a dark tourist. I mean, it really led up to that. You know, could I have maybe. But, you know, would I have gotten the same out of it? I don't know. But, you know, but for some of my clients, I mean, even going to the grocery store is stepping out of their comfort zone. And it's like, so any stepping out of your comfort zone outside of therapy is healthy and good as long as it's obviously you're not doing something really stupid, you know, like injecting heroin. Okay. That's out of my comfort zone and should be, you know. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:29] Speaker A: What? You know, I'm Just curious. You know, you've talked about just the transformation that you've had, you know, and I know you're, you know, coming off of having a liver transplant. So first of all, how are you doing? And, you know, what are the lessons, too, through all of your travels that have helped you. You during, you know, something that's so difficult? How have you stayed grounded? What are the things that you've pulled from your travels to keep you moving forward? [00:35:53] Speaker B: Well, you know, it's interesting because, you know, I had a. I would say, well, I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. I had. [00:36:05] Speaker B: A lot of difficulties with autoimmune issues about 10 years ago. And I had a, you know, this anxiety was basically on steroids. And actually I was on steroids because I. Of the autoimmune issues and coming off the steroids, going on the stairs, I mean, it does so much to your anxiety. And, you know, and my wife left me at that time and my dad got really sick. He survived and was fine, but like, he, like the doctor literally said it was a coin toss. And then I ended up getting. Getting this. They thought it was ulcerative colitis and didn't, you know, I mean, so I went through this really dark, horrible time and I failed. I did so poorly during that time. And as a therapist, it's like I couldn't. I am ashamed of how badly I did, but at the same time, I have a story to tell. And, you know, it's like my suffering became my strength. And, you know, and, you know, I think jelly roll. I love jelly roll. And you know, like, you know, when you're. When you're beat down, I mean, there's nothing better than a good, good resilience story and redemption story. And like, and that's my story. Like, I had. I just failed. I failed in my marriage. I failed in my life. And I started doing a lot of solo travel then because my travel partner was gone, you know, and so I did a lot of solo travel and I. And I found myself in these dark places, and that's really where they came and helped me. I mean, they. I mean, I did a lot of the traditional stuff. Like, I went to therapy myself. I started meditating. And so I did a lot of the, like, the things that I would tell my clients to do on a regular basis. But. [00:37:45] Speaker B: But I think what helped me the most is when I stepped in into these dark spots and when I was going through my own suffering, I think they. I think I sought them out even more. And I sought out Even maybe the darker places on a subconscious level, I think, you know, over time, that subconscious became conscious that, like, oh, gosh, I really was seeking out the dark because of what they were helping me. They're helping me to not feel so alone in my struggles. And, you know, that, you know, you see again, like, you see little pieces of yourself when you go to these places. And. And some of these people that suffered and some of them survived, some of them got through. And you also. So you. You hear the. The dark stuff, but you also hear the stories of survival. And. [00:38:31] Speaker B: Even, like I say, going to these celebrity cemeteries, it's not going. And just kind of like, who look at the cool celebrities, it's like really reflecting on their lives. [00:38:43] Speaker B: Again, their difficulties and their triumphs. [00:38:48] Speaker B: And you learn from that. And when I say you learn on an emotional level, it sticks with you. And what I noticed when I was going through, you know, because I had a few years where I was doing pretty. Pretty good, and then I. Then my liver. [00:39:03] Speaker B: You know, went out the door. But. But when I was going again through my dark period with the liver disease, I had almost no anxiety because I think I really put in the work with dark tourism and. And there's a lot of. I almost started thinking in terms of history, you know, where I was called down to Minneapolis to get my transplant. So I got back from Oslo, I started getting sick in Oslo, and I got back, I took a blood test, and, like, my liver numbers were off the chart. And within a month, I was on the transplant list. And six weeks, actually a month after that, I had my first call to go to the Twin Cities and at the University of Minnesota is where I got my transplant. And my. My liver was in Atlanta, or not Atlanta, St. Louis. And they. [00:39:56] Speaker B: There was a delay, and I guess they were waiting for the person to pass away, which is, like, really a really weird feeling to have because it's like you're waiting for somebody to die to save your own life. It's like, again, I don't even know how to put emotions on that. [00:40:13] Speaker B: But there was a delay. And I think in terms of history, so I started thinking about the people on D Day. There was a delay there. They were getting ready to go, they were giving the speech, and they were ready to ship off. And then a storm came in, and they had to delay it a day. And it's like, okay, now I'm delayed. And I started kind of thinking of them, and it was their mission to get to the beach and to get to the other side and Fight on. And at this time, my lungs are starting to. The sac around my lungs are starting to fill up with fluid, and I can hardly breathe, and my eyes are just yellow, and my skin's starting to turn yellow. [00:40:48] Speaker B: And I'm itchy, and it's like, everything. [00:40:53] Speaker B: And then I got a call in the middle of the night, and my doctor says. [00:40:57] Speaker B: I wanted to run one more test on your liver since the guy was still alive. And the family said, no, take it or leave it. My doctor left it. You know, and then I'm like, am I going to die because this family backed out because my doctor said no? I mean. [00:41:13] Speaker B: It'S like I. You know, and again. So then I really found comfort in my dark tourism, you know, where I think when you go to enough of these places, you just naturally become a stoic in terms of. In a healthy kind of stoic, not the John Wayne, nothing bothers me type of stoic. You become a stoic in terms of, like, you know, you control what you can, and the things you can't control, you just. You have to let go. And I think going to these places naturally lends to you becoming a stoic. And I don't think there's any healthier attitude to have when you're going through your own suffering and being a stoic. [00:41:52] Speaker B: And I went back home, I suffered for a couple weeks, and then I got another phone call and I got my liver, and everything was fine other than, you know, that I had to recover, you know, But. Yeah. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Wow. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Yeah. But I went through that whole process. I mean, I would. I would say it's like that. That generalized anxiety I had. I. If anything, I lack anxiety now. It's like, you know, I've learned to control it so. So well, that. It just isn't something that is an issue anymore, actually. I probably have a healthy level, but. [00:42:25] Speaker A: Right. Right. When you've been through what you've been through, I'm curious, was there a certain place or a few places that, you know, really, you kept drawing on the stories, the history like that, you know, that you found unexpectedly healing during your period of suffering. [00:42:45] Speaker A: What were those places, if there are any. [00:42:47] Speaker B: Well, I would say. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Auschwitz, you know, because, you know, there were the places of the worst tragedies and, you know, and I'm sure that that is the place where I have been where the. I mean, I hate to compare. You know, this tragedy is that. I mean, there's. There's other places of genocide that are horrible and awful and. But the number of people in the small Area that were killed, murdered. [00:43:15] Speaker B: And the medical experiments and. But yet people made it through there. They not only made it through there, they lived good lives, some of them, and I'm sure they are always suffered with some level of trauma, but they got through. And so the greatest places of hell and actually you look at the Bible, you look at other Churchill. Churchill's words. [00:43:46] Speaker B: Really resonated me with me when I was recovering from. Because I hurt so bad, I felt so good because I could tell my liver disease was just gone. It was like curative. I mean you out with the old, in with the new and you're just changed overnight. But I still, you know, your, your stomach was, your ab was completely slashed open. And so I'm suffering with that and the recovery. And I would, I would hear Winston Churchill talking to me. You know, it was like when you're going through hell, keep going. And you know, and they like in the Bible they talk about, you know, I'm not a big religious nut, but they talk about, you know, Jesus was in hell for 40 days and then he, you know, and it's like the greatest stories in history are people that have gone through hell and they, and they keep going. And. [00:44:36] Speaker A: I'm curious if someone is going through hell. They're going through a horrible time in their own dark period and difficulties and they have an opportunity to travel. You know, what's a beginner friendly. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Maybe itinerary you would put together for lack of a better way to put it, that doesn't commoditize things but will lead them to places that are considered dark tourism that will have profound unlocks potentially for them. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm not even saying this to sell my book, but I would say starting off with something like my book where you're going through and it's, you know, you can be kind of an armchair dark tourist by reading books like that. And so that's, that's an in. [00:45:23] Speaker B: But you know, you can look at, I mean you don't have to be rich to go. You don't have to travel to Auschwitz. You don't have to, I mean starting off local, I mean there's you know, draw, draw a circle, 50 mile radius circle and you're going to find dark tourism types of space spots. And you know, and chances are they're not going to be super heavy. So you know, so, you know, venturing out and really stepping into some of those spots, there's hallowed ground in almost every city. There's a cemetery. And you know, if you walk through your Local cemetery. Chances are it's going to be park, like it's going to be, you know, it's serene, it's, you know, it's peaceful. It's, you know, and just looking at the different headstones and, you know, you can learn a lot. You know, some people, you know, their day of death might have been the same day that they, that they were born. You know, I mean, and you know, and you just kind of like, oh gosh, that was somebody's kid and you know, that they likely died giving birth and you know, gosh, how did that affect their parents? And you know, and yeah, it's horrible and it's tragic to think about that stuff, but. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Again, because you do, you are kind of gifted in a way when you honor other people by. [00:46:41] Speaker A: You. [00:46:42] Speaker B: Know, again, it kind of like you sort of live off, you allow their memory to live through you a little bit and. [00:46:51] Speaker B: You just become a stronger version of yourself when you do that, especially when you do it enough and you know, and then over time you can go to bigger and better. I shouldn't say better. It's not better, but bigger, more significant places. Deeply reverent places. [00:47:06] Speaker A: Do you feel like. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Anyone should avoid dark tourism or do you think that there are certain people for which this would be just too much for them to handle? [00:47:17] Speaker B: Well, for sure I'm going to step back. Anybody who goes in for sensationalistic reasons, especially if you're going, I mean, there's places where you can go in for sensationalist reason, it's not a big deal. Where it's like, okay, if you're going on a, on a haunted walking tour through la, you know, it's not, you know, like you can go there and you can joke around, you know, to some degree, you know, but they might tell serious stories like, like the Black Delilah, you know, you go, you know, it's like, okay, maybe it's time to, you know, when they talk about that, maybe you should just sit back and listen rather than make jokes. But. [00:47:49] Speaker B: But there's places like that that, you know, okay, it's not. You can go in a little bit for sensationalism. You know, there's the London Dungeon where they, they have, you know, they talk about the plague and Jack the Ripper and, you know, places like that where, okay, it's kind of actually fun to go through there. They have actors in there and they use this Gallo humor like, off, off with his head. Haha, you know, and, you know, and, and it's, it's kind of fun, but at the same time you, you. It's. That's a good entry into dark tourism too, is going to things like that. [00:48:22] Speaker B: But, you know, going into Auschwitz with that and you're taking selfies and that. Okay. No, I mean, that's awful, you know. Yeah. [00:48:34] Speaker B: So I would say, what's your motivation for going? That would be the number one question. Number two is. Yeah, can you emotionally handle it? Some people are just so empathetic. And you know where. [00:48:44] Speaker B: You might want to start off? At a lower level place. Like if somebody. [00:48:50] Speaker B: Was, I guess you'd call them an empath. If you're an empath and you just take on other people's emotions and you make them your own. Yeah. I would not say go to Whitney Plantation or go to even the 911 memorial or Pearl harbor or Auschwitz and Nagasaki, Hiroshima. I mean, I would not go to those places if I was an empath, where I was, you know, where I took on other people's emotions in a deep way. [00:49:18] Speaker B: But maybe I would go to the local cemetery or one of these haunted tours or whatever. And. Yeah. [00:49:25] Speaker A: I'm just curious with your work, you know, as a therapist, you know, dark tourism, the personal journey that you have been through, how. How has all of this changed the way that you see joy? [00:49:38] Speaker B: You know, I would say I appreciate everything in life more, you know, and this might sound corny and this might sound a little bit like the psychedelic guy, I don't know, but. And this is where I say there's a lot of crossover. [00:49:54] Speaker B: Smells smell more beautiful, sights are more beautiful, colors are more beautiful. Life is more beautiful when you see it through a different perspective that dark tourism can give a person. And so joy feels more joyous. [00:50:13] Speaker A: I love that. Yeah. It's like every time I come back from a trip, last year I got to go to Kenya and Uganda on a volunteer trip, which is really incredible with this great organization because international. [00:50:28] Speaker A: And I agree with you. When you. You go to places that are so different, you know, the landscape changes, the human circumstances change as well. [00:50:38] Speaker A: You come back and, you know, like, you just notice. You notice things. You notice the way you live your life. You're, you know, the gratitude level for things that, you know, people don't have that, you have, it changes, it shifts. I feel like you walk through the world differently. [00:50:53] Speaker B: You do, you do. And it's not like you're going there and you're comparing your life to theirs. It's like, yeah, you see? And the more different place you go to, I think that's why people are drawn to some of these, anthropology, where it's like, okay, Margaret Mead, the Coming of Age in Samoa, which is groundbreaking in its time, and. Or Ruth Benedict or even Jane Goodall with the chimpanzees. You learn about cultures and sometimes different species, cultures that are a lot like humans. And you just learn so much from that different perspective that you come back to your own life and it just. Things change and it's hard to even put your finger on it. I'm sure, you know, some pop psychologist would. Would know what, what that word would be. But you know, Jordan Peterson or somebody like that's that, you know, but, you know. [00:51:56] Speaker A: He'S good at that, right? [00:51:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think, I think he's really good at. I think he's really good at talking. You know, I like him, but he talks a lot of. Too. [00:52:08] Speaker A: Funny. Too funny. What I'd love to do now is transition to our true or false section. So we're doing a quick rattle. True or false. And what we're going to do here is I'm going to rattle off a few statements and you're going to tell us whether they are true or if they're false. And if you need to provide clarity, you know, to be in integrity with something, feel free to do that. [00:52:30] Speaker B: I struggle with true, false, true, false are harder than multiple choice for me. [00:52:35] Speaker A: Yes, we'll allow for that. If you need to provide clarity, feel free. Feel free to do that. All right. Okay, I'm gonna give you the first one. So the first one is travel is a form of therapy. [00:52:44] Speaker B: Yes, without a doubt true. [00:52:47] Speaker A: The second one, dark tourism can actually bring hope. [00:52:50] Speaker B: Oh, without a doubt true. Yeah. [00:52:53] Speaker A: Grief should be dealt with privately. [00:52:56] Speaker B: False in most cases. Yeah. [00:53:00] Speaker A: I'm gonna quick unpack. Give me a few thoughts on that or a few statements on that. [00:53:06] Speaker B: Grief should be dealt with privately. [00:53:09] Speaker B: You know. [00:53:14] Speaker B: Grief is, you know, I don't think anybody. Grief doesn't come with an instruction manual. You know, you can buy. Buy books on it. But, but even the stages of grief, you know, it doesn't go in this linear way. It, you know, it's. It comes and goes in ripples. And everybody's different. And sometimes people, you know, for example, I, you know, when I was actually called for my transplant, my I5 minutes, I got a text message from my. All my cousins are on this text thing. And we. I got a text message that my grandma wasn't going to live through the night. She ended up living three more days or two more days or something. But, but five minutes before I got My phone call that is. So I'm taking a shower to get ready to go down for my liver transplant, and I am bawling in the shower. [00:54:05] Speaker B: And it's like, I didn't want anybody to see that, you know? So, like I say, like, you know, grief sometimes can be very private, and sometimes, you know, but people shouldn't suffer in their grief, and they need to know that it's okay to talk and to lean into other people. And people want them to lean into them a lot of the times. And so that's what I mean by sometimes it's private. Sometimes it. It. You know. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:54:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:33] Speaker A: Right. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. [00:54:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:37] Speaker A: People travel to escape, not to heal. [00:54:41] Speaker B: Oh, gosh. That's one of those ones that I. I would say. [00:54:47] Speaker B: People travel to escape, but not to heal. [00:54:53] Speaker B: You know, that's one of the ones that need unpacking, but false. [00:54:57] Speaker B: You know. [00:54:59] Speaker B: Escaping is healing. [00:55:04] Speaker B: So I think when things are going good for me. [00:55:08] Speaker B: I'm more likely to go to the mountains or go to the beach or, you know, those type of things. And that's one thing that I noticed with dark tourism. When my life started falling apart. [00:55:19] Speaker A: I. [00:55:20] Speaker B: Went to dark tourism to put myself together, you know, again, I don't think I did that on a conscious level. I think once I, like, was able to reflect on my suffering, you know, from when I was healthy again and was, you know, it's like, oh, my God. I went to Jerusalem when I needed religion. You know, I didn't go there because I was this religious person. I went there when I was suffering. I went there to find religion. [00:55:43] Speaker B: And I came up with some really, you know, and in terms of dark tourism, there's very few places that are as dark as Jerusalem, but it's also a very hopeful place, you know. [00:55:54] Speaker B: And I would say that with a lot of the places. So. [00:56:00] Speaker B: Travel can be an escape, but escaping can be healing. [00:56:06] Speaker A: Wow. Beautifully put. Beautifully put. I've never been to Jerusalem. I've always wanted to go. Just two months ago, I went to Bethany, beyond the Jordan. I was in Jordan. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:56:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it was really, really cool. Got to go in the Jordan river and saw literally, the. The Israeli flag across the Jordan River. And for me, it was Easter Sunday. [00:56:30] Speaker A: And it was. Yeah, it was one of those. I don't really consider myself, like, that much of a religious person, but me either. The history, the story, the conflict, you know, all the things. I just felt this, like, incredible rush, sadness, reverence, hope as well. Yeah, yeah, it was really profound. It was really. It was one of those things I really had to sit with, you know, in that moment. [00:56:56] Speaker B: So, well, Jerusalem, I mean, so the biggest thing I got of Jerusalem was, you know, it wasn't, you know, I grew up Catholic and, you know, me too. And if you, you know, held a gun to my head, I would say I'm a Christian, but. But agnostic, you know, I mean, but going there, you know, you see all this stuff, like I didn't realize, like, everything is there for the most part. I mean, you see the room of the Last Supper, and you know, this is the courtyard that Jesus was tried in. This is where they put the thorn of crown, you know, I mean, you. Every station of the cross is there. And, you know, this is his prison cell. This is, you know, this like the tomb of the Virgin Mary is there. And you know, I mean, like everything. And you go into the room of the Last Supper and then you, you walk out and you go on the roof. And then like, there's the, the. [00:57:46] Speaker B: Room or whatever where. Gosh, now I'm blanking on the name. But not Benjamin Netanyahu. The. Anyway, it was the, the President of Israel at that time or the Prime Minister, Pontius Pilate. No, of like, of the Six Day War, which was like, you know, 50 years ago. Whatever. [00:58:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but anyway, you're going there, it's like you go on the roof and like, there's history at every single. I guess point is like there's history at every single corner. And it's not even necessarily ancient history. Some of it's, you know, 50 years ago history. And like the Jewish Quarter, you know, so, you know, the Jewish Quarter was burnt down, and then they, they rebuilt it, you know, during this, you know, after the Six Day War. And so. But you got the Armenian quarter, the Jewish Quarter, the Christian quarter, the Muslim quarter, and for the most part, they kind of intermingle. I mean, like, that's what I came away is like these people have such, you know, like, so such profound beliefs. And that's what I got out of it. It's like, okay, these three very different religions that, you know, they all kind of intermingled to some degree if you track their history back. And actually it goes back to the Dome of the Rock where on the Temple Mount there they have this rock that actually Christians aren't allowed to. It's Muslims only in there. But they have this rock where it's called the foundation rock, where. [00:59:15] Speaker B: It was the rock that the world was built off. It's the rock that Muhammad was said to have ascended to heaven. It's the rock where I can't remember this is where my Bible knowledge ends, but you know, where, where somebody in biblical times was going to behead his son. And you know, so like all the religions are kind of based off this rock. And. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Like, so it's like when I got out, it's like there's only like maybe 1/2 of 1% of people that just really hate each other. At least when I went there, it was just before all the, the fighting and stuff. But yeah, it. [00:59:54] Speaker B: How much people believed is what resonated with me the most. And I agree, you know, again, I wrote this, my book, I said, yeah, I didn't come out a sweater wearing churchgoer, but I came out somebody who really deeply believes in something. And I can't tell you even what that is, but I do believe in something. [01:00:11] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. Totally agree. And I think it's a journey, you know, sometimes it could be a journey of questioning and learning and then questioning it again. And you know, I think that, you know, like that if you believe in faith and a higher power, God, Allah, whatever it may be, you know, I think it's important to have that as a part of your practice, the questioning and the reaffirming and figuring out also too, having the space to figure out what works for you, what's what you believe in as well. [01:00:43] Speaker B: Right. Well, I came out with this like, this thought about like everybody, every religion is a different compass, you know, but all those compasses point the magnetic north. And what is magnetic north? That's God. And that is bigger than all of us can understand individually and even as a religion, you know. [01:01:01] Speaker A: So agree, agree. That's actually a great way to put it. I felt the same way. There was a profound moment when I was getting into the Jordan river and then people from the Israeli side were getting in on Easter Sunday at the same time. And I was just like, you know, you're right. Like we're all, there's different compasses, but we're all kind of pointing, I believe, you know, I agree. Same direction. [01:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:28] Speaker A: So anyway, I totally derailed us from our true or false. [01:01:31] Speaker B: No, that's it. Yeah, no, that's it. That's fine. [01:01:36] Speaker A: So the next one we have here is travel rewires your brain. [01:01:41] Speaker B: Yes, well, you know, I can take things very literally. So I'd say everything rewires your brain, but I think travel rewires it much more deeply than a lot of other experiences. And I think again some of these things like psychedelics and I've never done psychedelics. I want to, but I never have. [01:02:02] Speaker B: So psychedelics and I'm thinking in terms of even what research would say, but psychedelics. [01:02:11] Speaker B: Profound travel experiences. I would say the most significant dark tourism spots would count the astronaut effect. [01:02:22] Speaker B: Somebody dying or somebody being close to death, near death experiences, those types of things. Those are absolutely life changing, life shifting and change your neurochemical makeup like that, you know. [01:02:35] Speaker A: And yeah, how about this next one? Most people don't know how to grieve properly. [01:02:45] Speaker B: That's a tough one. I would say that's true. I mean again, grief doesn't come with an instruction manual. And you know. [01:02:54] Speaker B: I think we have these pretty conceived notions of how we need to grieve and they're just simply wrong. [01:03:03] Speaker B: Grieving is a very individual process and we all grieve at different rates. And grief, we might be just fine. [01:03:14] Speaker B: When somebody passes or we grieve a divorce or grieve whatever it is, we might be just fine. And then six months later it hits us, you know, and it just took the right, you know, or you're stuffing it or, or you're self medicating it or you know. So yeah. [01:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yes. People don't. I guess, yeah, I would say that's true. That people don't know how to grieve properly for the most part. [01:03:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. Yeah, yeah. There's no, people don't talk about it a lot. [01:03:49] Speaker B: I feel like it's a taboo subject, you know, people, people. Yeah. And it needs to be talked about. And again that's why dark tourism I think is really important. Because it's in your face. [01:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:04:03] Speaker B: And yeah, walking, walking through the darkness. That's where you find the light. [01:04:09] Speaker A: So true. This next one, trauma informed travel is a growing trend. [01:04:14] Speaker B: True, true. A lot of these places and that's really where maybe the new ethical dilemma of dark tourism could come in. Where I think a lot of people are learning this and I want them to because it's really important. But people are flocking more to places like Auschwitz and Hiroshima. And. [01:04:39] Speaker B: I'm not the person to say it's too many or how many is too many, but I think, yeah, without a doubt it's a growing trend because more people are visiting places like that. And I would say, you know, there's more places like that. There's endless places like this unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know. But. [01:05:01] Speaker B: You don't have to go to the darkest place on earth to Find darkness that's unfortunately all over. [01:05:10] Speaker A: How about this next one? Visiting historic prisons or cemeteries is just morbid curiosity. [01:05:17] Speaker B: Well, it depends on the person's motivation. You know, I mean, if you're going to. [01:05:25] Speaker B: A cemetery or. Or a prison to. [01:05:30] Speaker B: You know, to kind of get your rocks off, you know, and, you know. [01:05:37] Speaker B: It'S a question you have to ask yourself, you know, So. [01:05:42] Speaker B: I would say that that is false because it's not just morbid curiosity. I think that a small percentage of people that go to those places, it is morbid curiosity, but I would say the vast majority of people that go, it's not. [01:05:54] Speaker A: How about this next one? The body holds trauma and movement helps release it. [01:05:59] Speaker B: True, with some caveats. You know. [01:06:05] Speaker B: You can't get rid of all trauma by body movement, but you certainly can make a lot of progress. You know, a couple weeks ago, I went to a conference in Boston, and it was put on by the. [01:06:19] Speaker B: Trauma institute, the trauma. The big research institute. But anyway, Bessel van der Kock was the. The. The big speaker and he. He did the book, the Body Keeps the Score. And. And they talked a lot, you know, the various speakers, about how movement can definitely help with trauma, but also music and, you know, document documentaries. Documentaries is a. Is a kind of a. You know, it was similar to. To dark tourism and I think, too, where, you know, it doesn't have to be a dark. You know, it can be a documentary on Michael Jordan. You know, like, okay, what struggles did he go through as a kid and as an adult and he, you know, his dad dying and, you know, I mean, there's a lot of. I mean, like, okay, so you. As long as you're seeing reflections in other things. [01:07:09] Speaker B: I would say argue dark tourism. I mean, it's almost impossible to not see reflections of yourself when you go in, you know, in the proper mindset. But, you know, you know, going to places where, you know, people live that you look up to and, you know, I mean, that can be helpful for trauma, too. And I don't know, talk about rabbit hole. I went on a rabbit hole there. [01:07:32] Speaker A: No, that. [01:07:35] Speaker A: I love what you said about documentaries. You know, I think that. [01:07:39] Speaker A: For me, travel documentaries, historical books, you know, it takes you outside of yourself sometimes. You, you know, you were talking about. You get so caught in your. Whatever is happening, you know, and I'll never get out of this. And, you know, this is the. And you read stories of unfortunate suffering or trials and tribulations, and you see, you know, people were able to triumph and humans are resilient. And it helps, at least for me, in my personal opinion. It's helped for me to reframe situations that I thought were just simply internal. [01:08:12] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [01:08:16] Speaker A: I'm going to ask you one last true or false. Travel helps us gain a broader sense of humanity. [01:08:23] Speaker B: Oh, without a doubt. Yeah. [01:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah. You know. [01:08:31] Speaker B: I like talking about my son because he. So he's a 25 year old, he's a mayor, he's a firefighter, he's a social worker, he was valedictorian, he pulled straight, straight A's in college. You know, but I would say the stuff that really impacted his life the most were his travels. You know, he might not even admit to this. You know, he'd probably get mad at me for even talking about it. But, you know, but I think it's more than the education is your life experiences. You know, education can help compartmentalize, but, you know, but puts you in a box, you know, you, you know people that can think outside that box. And when you step outside of your comfort zones again and you get into those other cultures and you taste new foods and you know, you pray with people that are of completely different religions. Like, one of the most moving things for me was I went, when I was in Kyoto, I went to a Buddhist service and, and they did this chanting. [01:09:35] Speaker B: But it really reminded me a lot of being in a Christian church or a Catholic church where because of the incense and the chant, you know, the, you know, the they were given. I don't have no idea what they're talking about, but, you know, they were talking and then they would go into these chants and, and it very much, you know, a lot of kneeling. That's all we did was kneel the whole time. [01:09:53] Speaker A: Yes. [01:09:55] Speaker B: And yeah, and it's like. [01:10:00] Speaker B: People on the exact opposite side of the earth do almost the same things we do, but just in a very. [01:10:10] Speaker B: Different language. Different. But it's so similar in a lot of ways too. We're all the same on the inside and it's just our circumstances that change us. [01:10:22] Speaker B: And that really puts it into stark perspective when you see that, you know. [01:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. You know, I would say too, one of the things I've learned that I feel like you don't really learn explicitly in school, you know, just the kindness of humanity. [01:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:38] Speaker A: You know, I solo travel, you know, a ton and I've been to places where no one looks like me. I don't speak the language. And one of my favorite moments was I was in Bangkok and was by myself and was trying to go to. Gosh, I forget where. But anyway, I was in this random part of Bangkok and there's like ton of traffic I couldn't get around. It was a hot mess. Like, it was just one of those days. And I'm just standing, trying to get a, you know, a taxi or get back on the bus or something, you know, I was lost. And I'd been standing there maybe for like 20 minutes, and this man comes out of this, like, super rickety. [01:11:16] Speaker A: Shop, like a tire shop, and he brings me a chair. [01:11:23] Speaker A: And, you know, he can't speak English, but he's like. He points to me, he's like, you sit. And, you know, and I was just like, I was in tears. I mean, I couldn't even. I was like this random woman standing on this side and just like the. I've had so many situations like this. I feel like. [01:11:43] Speaker A: Travel'S taught me about just the kindness of humanity, the generosity of people, and that the world is mostly a good place. [01:11:51] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:11:53] Speaker A: What I feel like I've learned. [01:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I feel so bad because a lot of the people that would benefit so much from traveling can't afford to travel, you know, and that. And that breaks my heart. And I wish I had an answer for that. And I wish. I wish I was rich and could send people on, you know, that needed it. [01:12:11] Speaker B: You know. Oh, gosh, how would I say this with being politically correct? There's a lot of people in our country, especially compared to a lot of other countries, that really need to experience other places, you know, and they don't. And they think their point of view is the only point of view, and that's not. [01:12:31] Speaker B: There's so many different ways of looking at a situation, and. And I say look at it through humanity's eyes, not your eyes. [01:12:44] Speaker B: And it's life changing. [01:12:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. On that beautiful note, I want to transition to our rapid fire. So this section. Love this section because we get to ask you a few rapid questions, some about yourself. I'm going to choose just a few. Few of these at random and, you know, just give us some, you know, short answers on some of these trending questions. So I'm actually curious, as a fellow traveler, what travel ritual do you never skip? [01:13:16] Speaker B: You know, I was thinking of that, and I don't know if I have a travel ritual that I never skip. Interesting. You know. [01:13:25] Speaker B: And I was actually prepared to answer this, you know, because. [01:13:30] Speaker B: I have learned that over the years that, you know, if I had a travel ritual, let's bring my phone, you know, make sure I don't. Don't forget my charger, you know, which I do all the time. But. So, yeah, maybe that's my travel ritual is try to remember my charger when I leave a hotel room. But I don't even carry a suitcase anymore. I carry a carry on. I have a carry on suitcase. But it's been many years since I checked baggage. Even when I've gone places for weeks, I just. Yeah, I pack my. The thinnest pants. I like the windbreaker type pants. So if it's. If it's, you know, unless it's gonna be a really cold place, I just have these windbreakers and a couple pairs of shorts and, you know, so I've learned to pack real lightly and. [01:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:14] Speaker A: So. [01:14:17] Speaker B: Travel ritual. I've learned to not have a. I used to really dig into those travel books and. And now I still buy a travel book. I mean, I love Rick Steves if I go to Europe. [01:14:26] Speaker A: Me too. [01:14:26] Speaker B: You know, I mean, any. Yeah. [01:14:30] Speaker B: So. [01:14:32] Speaker B: But I've learned that. So I still get the travel books. I'll flip through them and, you know, and kind of have a sense. But I don't like the plan. I'll go to places without even getting a hotel room. You know, I went to Egypt. I went to Egypt. Didn't have a hotel room. Same. Found one. I got a $50 hotel room. It wasn't the, you know, it had a used bar of soap for my soap and it, you know. Okay. But it was right at the. I mean, the Great Pyramid was right there. And, you know, and the Sphinx was just down, you know, and it's like, it was right there and I had a balcony overlooking this. $50 a night, you know. Okay. I sacrificed a few things for this beautiful view. And, you know, I overheard them, you know, the night talk that they give there, and they. It's just. It's just like, you can't beat that. And. And I found that in a lot of places. Every once in a while I get burned where like, oh, gosh, now I'm painting. Paying double for a hotel room. But for the most part, I've saved money doing it that way. Yeah. Yeah. It just happened to be in Boston. I didn't have a hotel room my last night there. Just figured I'd get a cheap one after my conference is over. [01:15:33] Speaker A: And. [01:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I ended up paying $400 for a airport hotel room. [01:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I feel like it all balances out in the end. My poor family. Sorry, parents. I love you guys very much. I know you guys Are so sick of me at the last minute going places with like no, like they're like, where are you staying? What's going on? When's your flight? I'm like, oh, you know, I'll just wing it. And I know my poor parents are like you know, clutching their. [01:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I know my mom would agree to you. My mom would agree with you with that. That's exactly how I do it too. Yeah, yeah. Norway. Norway was like two weeks notice. I just, you know, $750 Norway. Okay, I'm going. [01:16:12] Speaker A: I do the same. I do the same. People are like, this is this. We can't, we can't hang with you. Or like anyone who's planning a trip with me already kind of knows going into it like I'll be coming in at the last minute. [01:16:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, the thing is too is if you over plan a trip, I see that. You know, I used to just Google to death, you know, the hotel rooms, the, you know, the, the agendas, the again get the Rick Steves books, get the, you know, and I just like plan it out, you know. And then it's like, it's hard to break off those plans. It's like, oh no, I gotta rush through here. Oh, I didn't get the Versailles. Oh my gosh. You know, and then if you go and you're just kind of wing it, you kind of know where things are and you got a plan and yeah, you just. [01:16:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I love it, I love it, I love it. [01:16:57] Speaker B: Yes. And then, and then you end up in these off the beat places which is where, where you want to be, you don't want to be in the tourist traps and yeah, you end up in the cool places, not the, not the popular places. [01:17:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I like to travel. I always say like I want to allow for the. Yes. Like if something like crazy happens, I meet someone really cool and I'm like, yeah, that's a yes. Okay, cool. I have the space to be able to do that. I'm not so constricted to schedule. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. [01:17:29] Speaker B: You know and one thing that I, you know and I don't think Rick Steve is going to like me for saying this but. [01:17:36] Speaker B: So one thing that I have been doing lately, so about a year ago I got chat GPT and so when I've traveled I've like, okay, what's you know, like I'll see something. Actually in Japan I had this. So that was my first big trip. [01:17:50] Speaker A: Right. [01:17:50] Speaker B: It was after I Had my transplant and, you know, and I'm trying to get this last place in which was Hiroshima so I could write my book. I wanted to make sure I got to Hiroshima. And so I just take pictures of things. What does this say? You know, so it tells me what it's saying in Japanese and, you know, and what are. What are the things around Kyoto? And then tell, you know, and tell me more about, you know, the black rain that fell after the bomb dropped. And, you know, so you could add more to your tour visits and, you know, I mean, you got to realize that it's wrong once in a while. [01:18:22] Speaker A: But yes, for sure. Right, right, right. [01:18:24] Speaker B: Yeah. What time does the bullet train come? And, you know, I mean, it really was very helpful in a lot of those regards. [01:18:31] Speaker A: It's so helpful. We were just in Luxor in April, and my boyfriend and I used ChatGPT around Luxor Temple. We kind of planned the last minute. Couldn't get a guide. We're like, oh, well, let's try ChatGPT. And we use the voice feature in order to narrate us around Luxor Temple. It was actually, like, really helpful. It was really good. [01:18:50] Speaker B: That would be cool. Yeah. I didn't know about. I mean, I knew about ChatGPT, but I didn't have ChatGPT when I went to Luxor. And it's like, how cool would that have been to just take pictures of these different things you're seeing on the walls? Yeah. So you see the hieroglyphics and you take a picture, it would. It would interpret it for you. [01:19:06] Speaker A: It was amazing. It was incredible. It was. [01:19:09] Speaker B: Now, that makes you want to go back there. I did hire an Egyptologist to show me around a little bit, but. [01:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. That's always. You can't replace that experience with someone who know like that. That in itself is an experience, you know, the human. Human connection there. But if you're in a pinch. Hey, Chachi. Bt really pulled through for us. It was a great experience. [01:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:19:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:19:32] Speaker B: You know, but it's like I went to the Luxor Temple and the. The Karnak Temple with this Egyptologist, you know, and he reminded me of, like, the Egyptian Anthony Bourdain. He was just the coolest guy ever, you know, and we sat in this hookah shop and. And drinking tea afterwards, and it was just like, you see the curly smoke? Oh, it's just magical. But. But, you know, but when I went over to Valley of the Kings, it's like, I didn't have Any of that stuff. And like, I'm just kind of left to my own devices and. [01:20:01] Speaker A: Right. [01:20:01] Speaker B: You still get, I mean, still feel it, but it's. Yeah, it'd been nice. [01:20:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:05] Speaker B: I wish I had CHAP and DBT for that especially. [01:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Super helpful, super helpful. I'm curious, what's the most misunderstood emotion, kind of transitioning here? What would you say? [01:20:20] Speaker B: Anger. Anger. Anger is, Anger is almost always a secondary emotion. So, you know, I mean, if you punch, if somebody punches you in the face, you're gonna get angry and punch them back. You know, I mean, so that's. That, that's. [01:20:34] Speaker A: But. [01:20:36] Speaker B: In my. So as a therapist, when I see anger, you know, it's almost like, okay, what else is going on? What were the underlying emotions that caused you to get angry? And, you know, and it really boils down that fight flight and, you know, it's kind of comes from the same exact part of the brain, your amygdala. [01:20:54] Speaker A: And. [01:20:57] Speaker B: So a lot of the times it's anxiety, a fear that causes you to get angry. So if you, you know, if somebody yells at their girlfriend, it's usually because they felt insecure about something, you know, like their girlfriend was talking to another guy. Well, it's because you're worried about losing her. That's a fear. That's why you got angry, because of your fear. So it's almost always. I would say it's almost always anxiety, underlying anger. Not always, but almost always. [01:21:27] Speaker A: Didn't know that. Very, very interesting. [01:21:31] Speaker A: I love asking travelers this one, one place you never go back to. [01:21:38] Speaker B: You know, I, I don't know that I. Again, I, that's a, that's a really hard one. I, I. [01:21:45] Speaker B: So a place that I'm not itching to go back to. I got a couple of them, I think. So I would go back, but so I don't think there's any place I wouldn't go back. I want to say that I love Bob Marley. I love hanging out on the beach once in a while, but I don't think I would ever go back to a. Unless I had to, you know, unless I was with somebody that, you know, that I really loved and they wanted to go. But an all inclusive beach resort that, where you can't. [01:22:15] Speaker A: You're. You were like, I'm already like, with you. [01:22:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're stuck there. You're. Yeah. [01:22:25] Speaker A: Yep. I was in same place. Jamaica was all inclusive with my sister. And we were both like, we're so grateful to be here. But this is not it for Us, like, this is not, you know. [01:22:38] Speaker A: Our travel vibe. We'll put it that way. It works for other people and, like, more power to you. But just for us. It wasn't our thing. [01:22:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When I was there, like, when I was at the all inclusive, so went to. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Negril, but then, you know. Which was cool. But it's like, okay. Like, I can only hang out on the beach maybe a day. And then it's like, okay, now I need to see stuff. And there wasn't much else to see. I don't. I didn't find. Anyway, but. [01:23:04] Speaker B: Then we were in Montego Bay, and that's where we had the all inclusive. It's like my biggest memory. And I wrote about this. My biggest memory there was going to the. [01:23:15] Speaker B: Rose hall, which was the. Did you go to Rose Hall? [01:23:19] Speaker A: Yes. [01:23:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So you learn about Annie, the white witch of Rose hall, and all the horrible things she did. And. And again, that's another plantation. It wasn't, you know, certainly wasn't as emotional as the Whitney plantation, but it's another one that talks about it more from the slave point of view, and it doesn't glorify the plantation, at least. This tour I went on. I went on a night tour, and they actually had people dressed up as ghosts walking around, and it was really bizarre. [01:23:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:23:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I have to agree with you with that one. You know, I'm curious, too. For you. Solo travel or group trips? [01:23:59] Speaker B: Solo, for sure. [01:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:02] Speaker A: Wow. Do you ever get lonely on solo trips? [01:24:04] Speaker B: Never. No. No. [01:24:09] Speaker B: I really don't get lonely. You know, I. [01:24:14] Speaker B: Again, I think. Yeah, well, Yeah. [01:24:19] Speaker B: I think Dr. Freud would need to unpack that. But. But. [01:24:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think being a stoic, you. You really learn to. [01:24:35] Speaker B: Be comfortable being by yourself, and I don't. I just. You know, even after my divorce, I really longed for my wife. You know, it wasn't my decision to get. Get divorced. And I really longed for her. And. And I. But I never felt lonely. I never felt, you know, I. I felt maybe insecure a little bit, like, how am I gonna. I have to build friends again and, you know, and kind of find my own life. So I. But, yeah, I never, like, sit home and like, gosh, am I lonely because I'll get out and go do something, you know, and. And when I'm traveling, I'm. I'm busy and, you know, I don't stay in the nicest places because it's like I'm out doing things all the time, and I come back Just to sleep. And so I don't know. And I talk to people, and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I just want to be by myself. And, you know, and I guess maybe part of that, I'm an introvert, too. And I mean, I can turn my extrovert on, but I'm, for the most part an introvert. I like my alone time. [01:25:35] Speaker A: Interesting. Interesting. Curious about this one. What is probably, if you had to pick one, the most surprising moment on one of your trips. [01:25:45] Speaker B: The most surprising moment. Oh, good question. [01:25:52] Speaker B: Hmm. [01:25:57] Speaker B: I guess I don't know if it was a moment, but, you know, you hear about France and like, oh, they're so rude. And they're, you know, and I. And the very first person I met in France was rude, and I literally. And I've been to France a few times now. That was the only person that I met was. That was rude. That was the first person I like. I love the French people. So I think there's these stereotypes that. Until you go there to wherever it is, a lot of these stereotypes are just, you know, I don't know. They're not true. [01:26:32] Speaker A: You know, it's so true. I've had the same experience in France. I think it's also the energy you put out. Like, if you come expecting people to be rude, then you'll act in a very defensive way. [01:26:41] Speaker B: And I think, yeah, maybe. [01:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point up on that energy. I've had the most helpful, kindest people. [01:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:26:49] Speaker A: In Paris, especially, where people talk, you know, talk specifically about Parisians. [01:26:53] Speaker B: Right. [01:26:54] Speaker A: I had my last day in Paris once. I had spent all my euros, and for whatever reason, like, my card wasn't working. I couldn't get on the train to get to the airport. And this couple, like, saw me, like, struggling, and they're like, here, here's some money. And they just were like, we'll pay attention. I was like, oh, my gosh. Thank you. So I'm so. I was just by myself, like, struggling, and, you know, my. That time, I didn't speak any French. This was, you know, maybe like 20 years ago. And, yeah, just moments like that where people are just kind and, like, giving. I've. Yeah. Giving things. And I think sometimes. [01:27:27] Speaker B: Well, yeah. And, you know, I would say anywhere you travel, as long as, you know, hello, you know, thank you. I mean, if, you know, hello and thank you. That's 90, you know, agree. [01:27:38] Speaker A: People are so grateful. [01:27:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:27:39] Speaker A: So grateful that you tried, you know. [01:27:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I was so happy when I. When I. I called Moulin Rouge and, you know, and I, I said, Escuvu Co. Longley, you know, which is, do you speak English? And, yeah, I think, you know, somebody's probably correcting me. And it's like I felt so proud of myself that I said a whole sentence in French. Yeah. And they're like, yes, I speak English. You know, most places I go, they do speak English. [01:28:05] Speaker A: Is, you know, oh, that's what happens to me. You know, I've been trying to learn French over the last, like two years, you know, and my French is horrible, Horrible. I will go and I will try to speak, but people hear me just butchering. They're like, man, she's just butchering. And they just start speaking me in English. [01:28:21] Speaker B: Right? You're like, no, yeah, you know. [01:28:26] Speaker B: Yeah, English is, you know, for the most part, I mean, everybody. Not everybody, but there's a lot of places that they at least know a little bit of English and. [01:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [01:28:34] Speaker B: So when people are scared of traveling because of the language barrier, I. I have never had me either a significant issue, minor issues. Significant. No significant issues ever. [01:28:45] Speaker A: The only time I ever had an issue was in China. I ended up eating salamander and getting sick because we didn't know it was salamander. But that was the only time I had an issue. Otherwise, it's fine, you know, it's been fine, you know. [01:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah. My next book probably is like, how to do World Travel with being a Picky Eater, because I am a super picky eater, which is too bad because I. I really think food is such a cultural thing, but. [01:29:10] Speaker A: Right. [01:29:10] Speaker B: But so, I mean, I do try, but. Yeah, it takes a lot of trying. [01:29:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Salamander. Ooh, I think that one. No, no, skip that one. [01:29:23] Speaker A: I want to move on to our breaking down wild trend. So what we've done is we've gone to some of these social media platforms to find out what people are talking about when it comes to dark tourism, so on and so forth. So I'm going to ask you this first one that we found. Grief tourism using travel to process loss. Is it actually helpful? People are talking about grief tourism all around social media. [01:29:48] Speaker B: Okay, well, actually, I didn't know that, but yeah, I would say grief tourism is definitely something that, you know, especially if you stick it in the realm of dark tourism, you know, again, boils down to motivations and, you know, but if you're going to. [01:30:06] Speaker B: Memorialize or to reflect on the life of a loved one. Yeah. [01:30:13] Speaker B: Without a doubt. I think. [01:30:17] Speaker B: Turning towards pain is often a good thing to do. Maybe not physical pain, but emotional pain. Turning towards your pain is sometimes the only way to walk through it. [01:30:30] Speaker B: It's a dark door, but when you walk through it, there is another side to that pain. And a lot of times, and I think, again, dark tourism is a big piece of this, where you. [01:30:43] Speaker B: Find meaning in pain, you find meaning in darkness. And when you can do that and when you get good at doing that. [01:30:52] Speaker B: You can definitely lead a more productive life. And I think when you're grieving, you can. You can do something very similar. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Thank you for that. Super helpful. I want to ask you one more. One more trend that we'd love to discuss. So we've been seeing these transformation trips led by influencers. Do you feel like they do more harm than good? [01:31:18] Speaker B: Oh, you know, I don't know a ton about that. I would say it depends on the influencer. And it depends on. Yeah, on, you know, are they an expert or are they, again, just a kind of a popular person that, oh, I want to go hang out with this tiktoker, you know, and, okay, why are you going? And what are they actually showing you? And can you believe it? And can, you know, Because, I don't know, that's how cults are made. You know, like, you. You get people that are kind of vulnerable, and you go do something together that's profound, and. [01:31:55] Speaker B: You'Re being led to believe something that is completely delusional. And, you know, so I would say if you truly trust it and they're, you know, and. And if people are saying, are you sure you would want to do that? You know, maybe you shouldn't and think twice about it. [01:32:10] Speaker A: But. [01:32:12] Speaker B: So, yeah, it depends on the person. You know, if it was Rick Steves leading it, you know, sign me up. [01:32:17] Speaker A: But me too. Samantha Brown. [01:32:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Samantha Brown. Yes. Yeah, she. [01:32:24] Speaker B: She was. She was my first travel crush. [01:32:26] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, she was my, like, travel icon, you know. [01:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah, you know. You know, honestly, the first show that I loved that was a travel show was Dave Attells. He did a show called Insomniac and, you know, a comedian. And. Yeah, he would go to all these different towns and, you know, and it was when I was 16 and, you know, and he would go, you know, party and. But he'd also talk about culture and things like that that were, you know, and you take selfies with people with the old plastic disposable phones and. Yeah, yeah, he was my first. Yeah, I see him more as a travel person than a. Than a comedian to be Honest. [01:33:04] Speaker A: How cool. Yeah, I'll check that one out. Yeah, yeah, old episodes. Cool, cool. We're going to do one thing. We're going to quickly jump into what we call the Reddit rabbit hole. So. [01:33:17] Speaker B: Okay. [01:33:17] Speaker A: Our team also goes on Reddit and we scour to find what people are talking about related to, you know, travel and dark tourism. We found two that I wanted I want to ask you about. So this first one was in the askanthropology subreddit and the person says, what kind of cultural theory lies behind dark tourism? When tourists visit sites of murder and horror, such as Chernobyl, 9, 11, sites of genocide, what motivates people to go to such places is what they ask. So I'd love for you to address this. [01:33:51] Speaker B: So the actual social theory, I'm not a social psychologist, like I couldn't probably give you the academic theory, but I would say. [01:34:00] Speaker B: People like, you know, for, as a therapist going to places of tragedy and finding meaning is in line with Viktor Frankl's logotherapy. And so I would say that is, I mean, I believe that that's one of my main motivators, especially when I went to Auschwitz where, you know, where he developed his theory and you know, stoic philosophy where you go and, you know, you'll learn that on an emotional level that there's things you can control and can't control and you know, and you just want to live a more virtuous, healthy life. [01:34:42] Speaker B: So I think those are theories. [01:34:46] Speaker B: What else? [01:34:48] Speaker B: I think people go again to pay their respects and to not so remembrance of people's suffering, to honor people. [01:35:01] Speaker B: Like that. Dr. Philip Stone, he, he talks about a thing called. [01:35:07] Speaker B: Mortality mediation and that is going and stepping into dark tourism spots and you know, and kind of doing what I did, you know, so he was the theorist beyond behind. [01:35:21] Speaker B: At least the current day language of, in the academic research base comes from him. A lot of it comes from him. And I'm kind of the person that he's writing about where it's like I'm going to all these places and they're coming, these reflections are coming back to because I'm going in. [01:35:42] Speaker B: With such reverence and trying to, going in with empathy. Those come back and impact me in a lot of healthy ways. [01:35:52] Speaker A: Interesting. Very, very, very interesting. Yeah, I feel like. [01:35:59] Speaker A: When you are, at least I'm speaking my experience, when I'm in a place where, you know, things start to feel overwhelming in my day to day life, going to a place of such significance, of such, you know, tragedy, of such. [01:36:12] Speaker A: At least for me, it's been a reframe. It's kind of snapped me out of the, you know, and that's, that's why I've been to those places, you know, not. Yeah, the history, the reverence, the understanding, but also to kind of break the cycle of. [01:36:27] Speaker A: Being in my own head. Yeah, it's been really powerful. [01:36:31] Speaker B: Well, and that's where I was kind of going with that astronaut. The overview effect or the psychedelics or in having these near death, going to places of dark tourism. Yeah, I mean, these places, it's like you can be when you're in your own suffering, you know, doing one of, you know, having one of these things happen to you or going to one of these places. Yeah, it definitely, it rips you apart and it puts you back together. You know, it's kind of like you're going through boot camp in a day, you know, not really, but kind of psychological. Boot camp. [01:37:04] Speaker A: Psychological. [01:37:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:37:07] Speaker A: We have another one for you. So this one was actually in the Ukraine subreddit. So someone said dark tourism and they put quotes around it on the rise in Ukraine. Is war tourism educational or unethical? [01:37:26] Speaker B: Well, okay, so. [01:37:31] Speaker B: The way it's written, I would say that's unethical. [01:37:34] Speaker B: So to me, if you're going to go into a war zone and you're doing it to get off, you know, to go there and you know, to see fighting and bloods and guts and, you know, and are you hoping to see war happen in front of you? I mean, are you getting off on having a bomb possibly fall on your head? I mean, what hole are you trying to fill by doing that is what I'm asking. It's like you need to see a therapist. You don't need to see war. You know, when you're in that, if you're that type of person, if you're that much of a thrill seeker, there's other ways to, to do that without putting your life in danger and probably putting other people's life in danger by getting in the way of things. And you know, so to me that's stupid. If you're going there and you're going there to help with. [01:38:29] Speaker B: Like if you're going there, I could see myself going to Ukraine even now and bringing people blankets and food and okay, you're a humanitarian, you're not a dark tourist. Do you get some of the same benefits as being a dark tourist? Absolutely. But. [01:38:47] Speaker B: You'Re going there for the right reasons. Again, boils down to the motivation. [01:38:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And the intention. [01:38:54] Speaker B: And the intention, absolutely. Yep. [01:38:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like, too, there's the. Also. So I've seen, you know, a lot of journalists there, you know, of course, I think that's different. [01:39:05] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [01:39:07] Speaker A: The story and show. [01:39:10] Speaker A: Their, you know, show people stories, show humanity suffering so that we understand. [01:39:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. Oh, right. I mean, if you didn't have Anderson Cooper or something like that sitting in Ukraine telling you there were. I just saw people, you know, shot over here or, you know, whatever. [01:39:30] Speaker B: So and so was telling me about their child killed. I mean, when we think about war, like, I mean, if we don't see the human side behind that, you know, it. How is that any different than thinking about a war that happened 2,000 years ago? [01:39:47] Speaker B: You know, there's a big difference. You know, it's happening now, and we can prevent it from happening any. You know, we can help people. We can maybe stop that war. And. Yeah, so war correspondence and our heroes, in my opinion, most of them, you know, it depends on, I guess, how they're broadcasting it, but. [01:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And intentionality is key. [01:40:06] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. [01:40:09] Speaker A: Intention. [01:40:09] Speaker B: Right. [01:40:10] Speaker A: So key. [01:40:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it also can go with psychological warfare. I mean, that, you know, if you're going there and you're trying to convince somebody of something that shouldn't be convinced because it's not true, you know. Yeah, that's different. [01:40:22] Speaker A: It's a whole other intentionality. So key. I want to move on to our last segment for today, which we like to fondly call what's in the Bag. [01:40:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and since I'm a. I'll say I'm a minimal tourist. You know, I don't have a ton in my bag, but I literally brought my bag here today. [01:40:44] Speaker A: So the very first thing. [01:40:45] Speaker B: Very first thing I bring is my headphones. It's. Especially my noise cancellation. [01:40:50] Speaker A: Those are nice ones. [01:40:51] Speaker B: Yeah, they're Sony, I think. So I have to have those. I. I probably average. Average have them on my head a couple hours a day. So you got to have, you know, if you're a travel writer, you got to have a travel book. [01:41:06] Speaker B: Be able to write your notes at the end of the day. You know, either lotion or sunscreen. [01:41:13] Speaker A: Same. Both. I have. Yep, yep. [01:41:16] Speaker B: You know, hand sanitizer. [01:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:41:19] Speaker B: Especially after Covid. I think that's. That's definitely one that is. [01:41:27] Speaker B: Okay. What else? You know, I just had this, and I don't have the new. New license, so I had to bring my. My passport. So this is literally getting unpacked from my Boston trip. So I brought my passport because, like, My license doesn't work anymore. [01:41:40] Speaker A: Oh, the real id. [01:41:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I don't have the real id. [01:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah, passport's key. I always say pass before I leave a place. I always, I'm like, you know, passport, wallet, phone, computer. I'm like, anything else, who cares? [01:41:56] Speaker A: I love it. [01:41:57] Speaker B: Yeah. I actually don't even bring my computer very often. I spend more time worrying about it's gonna get taken. So I mean, I got my phone, I can do, you know, I just can't sit and type. That's the only bad thing. So I mean, I take notes and then I come back and type it up and you know, when I get home. But. So I was planning for my next trip, so I got my Rick Steves Scotland book. [01:42:16] Speaker A: Oh, I've never been to Scotland. [01:42:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:42:19] Speaker A: Oh, how cool. [01:42:21] Speaker B: Yeah, a lot of dark tourism in Scotland, for sure. [01:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:42:27] Speaker B: What else do I got in here? Charger. [01:42:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I got my charger. You know, and the bad thing is a lot of times, you know, when you stay in the cheaper hotel rooms, a lot of times you, you don't have the, the plug in, the male. [01:42:43] Speaker A: End of the plugin. [01:42:45] Speaker B: A lot of times I'll be stuck without an actual. Yeah, the connector, the plug in piece. [01:42:51] Speaker B: But that's really the. [01:42:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's about the, the extent of my bag, I think. Other than that it's, yeah, very practical. [01:43:02] Speaker A: A lot of the same things. You know, I always said I was like my, my port, my phone should have like its own Instagram account that just is like focused on the random places it's been charged. Like I feel like I could, like my phone would be like, what is happening? Why, where am I going? Why am I in this back kitchen in like, you know, Jakarta. [01:43:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:43:29] Speaker A: Being charged. [01:43:30] Speaker B: Right, right, yeah. Why, why am I in this bathroom? [01:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. What is happening? I give you a whole other like Instagram account or TikTok. [01:43:45] Speaker B: No, that's one thing though. It took years before I became this minimalist traveler. But once you do, I mean, you can be so much more mobile. I mean, getting on a subway. Yeah, getting on a subway with all these suitcases is not easy. So when you, when you just got one little tiny one that you're bringing with you, you're good to go. [01:44:02] Speaker A: You need to teach me your ways. I'm not. I keep trying to. We went to China last year and the challenge was like, okay, you only can pack in like a carry on bag. So I go out and I buy those and I actually Never use those. Those, like. What do you call them? Those, like, compression bags for stuff. And the. Literally my bag was like, buckling out of the. [01:44:26] Speaker A: And then. Oh, man, it became like such a cluster on the trip because we have to, like, reseal them. And it was like, oh, no. My boyfriend and I, like, trying to reseal them. Trying to, like. We were like. Looked like we were like stomping grapes, trying to get the air out. Then we're all trying to, like, sit on the luggage. [01:44:45] Speaker B: Yeah. You know what? Actually, I think I was given those for Christmas one year. Those bags. I've never used them. So now. Now you just reinforce that I'm never gonna use them. [01:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. No, it actually created more complexity. And then I feel like it was actually worth. I just need to learn how to pack less things. [01:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it took years. I mean, I was probably 40 years old before I got to that point. [01:45:08] Speaker A: Okay. There's hope for me. [01:45:12] Speaker A: I just turned 40, so. [01:45:13] Speaker B: There's hope. Yes, there definitely is hope. [01:45:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:45:17] Speaker B: By the time you're 45, you'll be taking. [01:45:19] Speaker A: No, I'll be like. I'll be like, you, like, you know, like, ready to say, you know, I'm minimalist now and. [01:45:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah. I mean, if I was gonna spend, you know, two weeks in the winter somewhere. Yeah. I probably end up would have to take a big bag, but. [01:45:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:45:38] Speaker B: But for the places I've went, I've been able to get by. [01:45:41] Speaker A: That's amazing. That's a skill in itself. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Go. Hashtag goals. Yeah. [01:45:46] Speaker B: And then you wear a lot of stu. You know, you wear your coat and your winter coat on the plane and you stuff your pockets with as many things as you can. [01:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I need to get. Yeah, I need to get it together. Oh, so funny. So fun. This has just been such a joy. By the way, what are you working on now and where can we find you online? [01:46:06] Speaker B: I am just working on promoting my book. It came out May 1st. [01:46:11] Speaker A: Congratulations. [01:46:12] Speaker B: Had some awesome critical reviews. Kirkus, San Francisco Book Review, several others that. That amazing. That really were touting how good it. [01:46:23] Speaker A: Is doing the book dance. [01:46:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:46:28] Speaker B: No, no, no, it's not at all. Yeah, it's gonna take years before I sit down and do it again. [01:46:36] Speaker B: So the audiobook, I'm getting ready for that, that's supposed to come out on June 10th. [01:46:43] Speaker B: And I noticed just before I hopped on with you, I got an email from. From them. So I'm going to open that first thing and see if hopefully there's no delays. [01:46:53] Speaker B: And you can find me. My only real active social media is on Facebook. [01:46:59] Speaker B: But my. My website is doctor is in the initials Dr. Dr. Dr. Chadscott dot com. So. [01:47:07] Speaker A: Amazing. [01:47:08] Speaker B: And you can find my Facebook from that and. [01:47:10] Speaker A: Yeah, amazing. [01:47:13] Speaker B: And learn about me and my book. [01:47:16] Speaker A: Yes. Go check out. [01:47:17] Speaker B: And I have a lot of a section on there with a lot of dark tourism spots and. Yeah. So, yeah, check it out. [01:47:22] Speaker A: Yes. [01:47:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:23] Speaker A: Can't wait, everyone. We'll link up to it, you know, in the show notes. And just thank you so much for your vulnerability and honesty and just being, you know, curious and adventurous, like, inspiring us to be adventurous. [01:47:36] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for having us. Sounds like you're doing. You're. You're fighting the good fight, too, so thank you. [01:47:43] Speaker A: I'm trying. [01:47:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:47:46] Speaker A: One day at a time, you know. [01:47:48] Speaker B: Right. Absolutely. [01:47:50] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Thank you. [01:47:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. We'll talk to you later. [01:47:55] Speaker A: Bye. [01:47:55] Speaker B: Bye. Bye.